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Author Topic:   Natural Selection
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 3845 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002

Message 47 of 50 (15126)
08-10-2002 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by axial soliton
08-05-2002 2:49 AM


The Neanderthals were musical 50,000 years ago. Abstract thought was an every day occurrence. They made musical instruments while our ancestors made stone tools. Another signpost

JM: ROTFL!! I can't believe this one is making the rounds AGAIN. Look at the date of the 'article'. April 1, 1997. April 1 is typically known as "April Fools Day". Discover magazine played this joke. You can read about it http://www.discover.com/science_news/fool/fool97.html



Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by axial soliton, posted 08-05-2002 2:49 AM axial soliton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by axial soliton, posted 08-10-2002 1:19 PM Joe Meert has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 48 of 50 (15151)
08-10-2002 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by axial soliton
08-10-2002 1:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by axial soliton:

You and me both, man!

Their world view must have been to not rock the boat.

This is pure speculation. How can you know what their world view was? Or why they stopped expanding where they did?

would not allow themselves to adapt to the cockroach philosophy that humans seem to use so well.

More baseless speculation. You cannot know that they 'would not allow themselves' to do anything. Could have been that they tried and failed.

People who develop their world view after deep abstract thought do not necessarily care what the world is doing around them.

Fine. But you cannot apply this to Neandarthal. You cannot know the contents of their minds. That information is for the most part lost to us. We have burials. We infer some kind of religion/supernatural belief, but that is about all we can infer; and I am uncomfortable even with that.

Neanderthals were abstract thinkers 53kya that we know of.

I think you are referring to the musical instruments that Joe has pointed out were a joke. Even if they were not a joke, it doesn't imply abstract thought. Music -- the making of and the listening to-- is largely emotional. Watch how little kids will hum and make noise. Voila-- music, or proto-music. No abstract thought involved.

I speculate the Neanderthal could not survive on their own because humans in the valley compete for what food remains and play dirty politics, besides.

Reasonable enough, but humans need not necessarily have been involved in the end of the Neandarthal.

Since canabalism is well documented in human history, why not consider it under these circumstances?

But not as a staple food supply. Cannibalism is actually pretty rare and when culturally accepted has a great deal of theology and ritual associated with it.

After all, the Neanderthal are not us, who cares if there is one less?

This doesn't mean that humans would have eaten the N's (tired of typing that word). Humans are pretty weird about what they eat. Culture determines what is edible or not. Think about all the things around you that aren't food, but are edible-- cats, dogs, horses, roaches, crickets, children, pigeons....

It takes some insight, analysis, and smart use of data to figure out which way to migrate and how to adapt.

We aren't talking catastrphic change of environment when viewed from a human perspective. The change occurs over many generations. I don't see that it would take a genius to follow the food supply and the warm weather.

This is bad news for the slow human thinkers.

Remember, these slow human thinkers are virtually identical to humans 2002.

I am thinking that when the climate takes from one area, it gives to another.

No. Climate cannot be modeled as simplistically as that.

I mean American football.

ewwww.... sports! Icky!

It does not seem reasonable to me that the Neanderthal died out with the last woman starving to death on a hill overlooking the Atlantic in Portugal. It is more likely that humans and Neanderthal coexisted until the end.

Agreed. This is exactly what I said.

Coexistence in human terms means that our ancestors used the Neanderthal to benefit themselves.

No it doesn't. We haven't 'used' the California Condor, for example. Coexistence does not imply slavery of one to the other. You need more evidence for this claim.

I have found numerous references to Neanderthal art and music once I figured out how to look for it.

See Joe's post.


Water erosion of the sphinx is an interesting question.

Take a look at this picture of a yardang.


[quote]It is hard to believe that Cheops was the only pharoah without an ego. There was no burial chamber in this pyramid, as I recall. The sarcophagus found in other pyramids was missing here. Hard to believe thieves stole a stone box. To put the picture together requires looking at all that was going on in a time period.

This is a link that creationists will not like:
General data:

Very interesting links. Thankie.


[This message has been edited by John, 08-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by axial soliton, posted 08-10-2002 1:51 AM axial soliton has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member

Message 49 of 50 (15158)
08-10-2002 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Joe Meert
08-10-2002 7:44 AM

Here are some other contemporaneous sources to help you out:

Here is the one about the 53kya flute and how it was copied by a flutist using a 50kya bone from a cave bear as source material.

This site has a drawing of the same Neanderthal flute and under one of the links at the bottom, a discussion of the circumstances of flute-making. These people look very serious about the science of the flute and music

If the Discover article were truly a coincidental hoax, it is a very cruel mockery and peculiar topic to choose to perpetrate misdirection. I found this link which indicates who might start such a hoax and who would gain from it.
What do creationists feel they have such a big stake in Neanderthal art? http://www.csfpittsburgh.org/neand.html the text at the bottom is illuminating.
Here: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/282/5393/1451
is another discussion of Neanderthal and human art. What comes across to me as I learn more and more about the topic is that most of the community is homocentric. Though scientific in their argument, the context is biased toward humans. I hope these people who are so sure only humans have the art spark haven't been trampling earlier art at their digs. The Spanish Conquistadors did their best to ruin the cultures in the New World. Destroyed their art, history, religion, and writing, while stealing their precious metals. The Portugese failed in their attempt to do this with Japan. One reading of human history is that colonialization by "superior" Europeans continued until the World Wars of the last century allowed American ideals to surface. Perhaps this conquistador trait is a model for how the first waves of humans in Europe interacted with Neanderthal inhabitants. I'm not going to make any inferences about the religion of all these "superior" Europeans. I believe human nature is the key to the motive.

Was this Discover Magazine article just a cruel coincidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Joe Meert, posted 08-10-2002 7:44 AM Joe Meert has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 50 of 50 (15449)
08-14-2002 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by William E. Harris
07-12-2002 2:15 PM

hi matt!

here's ur last clue, read it carefully:


good luck!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by William E. Harris, posted 07-12-2002 2:15 PM William E. Harris has not yet responded

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