Okay I'm ill today Crash - I'll respond to you a bit later on, but I have not responded to Paul's posts so I will put him first on this occasion.
could point to a particularly illogical believer who insisted that what I said was wrong because he didn't like what he thought I'd said
Paul, I have the feeling that this means me. - don't be angry at me because of this topic. but if I was saying you were wrong - you could well be right aswell - I was probably just being stubborn.
If I criticise a believers arguments for being illogical it is because they are.
Fair enough, if you think that the arguments are illogical then you are simply obeying what you think is true. So, there will be many believers who have illogical arguments - I don't deny this, and the problem is that there actually might be a steryotypical emotional believer - but I can't really stop their tongues.
This topic is also a chance to show that emotional chumps might exist.
Logic is a system whereby one can determine if a conclusion can validly be drawn from a set of premises. It has nothing to say about the factual truth of those premises or conclusions.
Science is a method for establishing facts about the natural world and formulating theories to explain them.
Reason in this context is a more nebulous concept, and I doubt it really belongs in a set with the other two. That being said, valid logical arguments may be made for theism, but I have yet to see one where the premises are good and can stand a challenge. Also, unless a deity allows itself to be studied in a controlled environment, science has nothing to say on the subject.
So, logic and science have no real bearing on belief in a deity, and reason is so nebulous a term (in this context) that I think it must be disregarded.
Haha. Thanks but I still have a few enemies that hate my guts because I "used" to be a YEC here in EvC critterclub.
Honestly though - unlike your average creo - I have no argument against the ToE, I have difficulty believing it happened is all, but that's my problem not science's. So - the only difference between an evo and me is that I see evolution as a possible system used by God, I think it is scientific - not religious, and that it is probably the best theory to fit the facts. However - I admitt it is only a possible truth in my own mind. I guess I am a fence-sitter but in all honesty - I am not a classic "creo". I will even settle for Big Bang Theory and evolution if I have to, and it wouldn't bother my beliefs too much.