Where did the Egyptians come from ?

^ I thought everyone knew the pi 'contradiction' was easily solved by noting that the measurements may have been an inner diameter and an outer circumference?[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-08-2002]

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Incidentally, I'm not sure why biblical literalists seem to prefer the King James version. Is it easier to determine the correct meaning of a version written in a language 400 years old?

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No, its just that that's the only version I could find on the internet to look at.

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22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died." Genesis 6 KJV

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Everything can't be rounded off can it? It's not a number, it's fuzzy logic. Otherwise wouldn't they say almost everything instead of everything?

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Or should we read the literal meaning of the verse that the circumference was 30 cubits and the diameter 10 cubits and therefore pi has to be wrong because the bible says so!

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If you gave pi as a number, what would you say? 3.14 or 22/7 or another approximation? It is an irrational number, you can't rationalize it. If they said 3.14 in there, would you still be arguing the same thing? But then, I don't think they had invented the decimal point back then.[This message has been edited by blitz77, 08-08-2002]

Ah TB, always willing to accept the least likely possibility because it agrees with your religious dogma.Don't you mean internal circumference and external diameter to achieve a ratio of 3? I'm sure even the ancient hebrews, ignorant of geometry, would see the inconsistency of taking one internal measurement and one external measurement.But, whilst happy to believe in extraordinary variation in the speed of light over about 10,000 years and a spike in the rate of radioactive decay about 4,500 years ago, why draw the line at a change in the value of pi? Is that stretching your belief too far?

I know it is rather irrelevant applying logic to the bible but let's try it for the exercise.Pi is a constant ratio, irrespective of the units of measurement or the numerical system used. The numerical value will vary with the numerical system involved but it will be eqivalent in any numerical system.So, it doesn't matter whether the diameter and circumference are measured in inches, millimetres or cubits - you get the same ratio. You don't have to use the decimal numerical system.Now, given a circular shape of 10 metres diameter, what is the circumference? And you can round it of to the nearest metre. Did you get the biblically correct answer?

[QUOTE][B]Since those dates are the maximum, it could easily be 5000 yrs.[/QUOTE][/B]"Easily"? Only if we disregard everything inconvenient to the idea, right? : )

[QUOTE][B]No, its just that that's the only version I could find on the internet to look at.[/QUOTE][/B]Check BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

--So, it doesn't matter whether the diameter and circumference are measured in inches, millimetres or cubits - you get the same ratio. You don't have to use the decimal numerical system.Now, given a circular shape of 10 metres diameter, what is the circumference? And you can round it of to the nearest metre. Did you get the biblically correct answer?--Given the circumference of the circle 30 cubits, divided by pi = 9.549, which rounds to ten cubits. The actual circumference would be 29.86 - 30.4 cubits, and the actual diameter would be between 9.5 and 9.68 cubits.This is another one of those easily answered objections with the Bible, that will probably never cease to be asked!David[This message has been edited by halcyonwaters, 08-11-2002]

So halycyonwaters, the bible is not precisely accurate? It works within a margin of error? Which bits of the bible are precise and to be read literally and which bits are only approximations? Which bits are allegorical? the creation week? Noah's flood? Toewr of Babel? Moses and the burning bush? Bats as birds?

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Originally posted by wj:
So halycyonwaters, the bible is not precisely accurate? It works within a margin of error? Which bits of the bible are precise and to be read literally and which bits are only approximations? Which bits are allegorical? the creation week? Noah's flood? Toewr of Babel? Moses and the burning bush? Bats as birds?

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WJ, what is it exactly you're saying? Is it that God thought the world could only be measured in whole cubits? Do you also think we should read the bible geneologies to say people lived in whole year increments, not half years? Months? days? A year and one day?When Jesus says to go two miles with a guard that asks you to go one, does that not apply if the guard only asks you to go to across the street?The majority of problems people have with the Bible come from having an "all or nothing" approach. Just because one verse is obviously being stated as historical fact, doesn't mean every verse is. If you want to determine if something in the Bible is allegorical, you use the same literary judgement skills as you would on any other written work.David

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Given the circumference of the circle 30 cubits, divided by pi = 9.549, which rounds to ten cubits. The actual circumference would be 29.86 - 30.4 cubits, and the actual diameter would be between 9.5 and 9.68 cubits.

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Except that you are assuming the circumference was the most accurate messurement. Lets try it this way; Given the diameter of 10, multiplied by 3.14 (for simplicity), that gives a circumference of 31.4 cubits.Given that it is far simpler to measure the diameter than the circumference I think that my scenario is more likely.------------------
compmage

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Given that it is far simpler to measure the diameter than the circumference I think that my scenario is more likely.>>

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Isn't this some sort of pit? I would think it would be hard to measure the diameter. Anyhow, it doesn't make a difference. If I measure the diameter at 9.5, I write down ten, and get a circumference that rounds to 30. There is no problem here.

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David

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Isn't this some sort of pit? I would think it would be hard to measure the diameter. Anyhow, it doesn't make a difference. If I measure the diameter at 9.5, I write down ten, and get a circumference that rounds to 30. There is no problem here.

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You are right, there is no problem. The Bible is not inerrent. This means that you are free to interpret any passage to suite your needs, whatever they may be. However, that does mean that quoting from the Bible has about as much merit as quoting from Alice in Wonderland.------------------
compmage

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I'm not interpreting passages to meet my needs -- I'm using two pints of judgement and a pinch of common sense.

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God: Oh compmage, why did you doubt me for so long?
Compmage: Partly because you rounded numbers off in the Bible.

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David

wj, amazingly, there is recent evidence that pi has changed over the last 15 years. I got this email news from American Scientist last week:>ROUND BUT NO APPLES
>Los Angeles, CA
>
>The obsession of some mathematicians for calculating the value
>of 'pi' to the nth decimal place has been a mystery for many.
>Pi, the ratio of the circumference of a circle to it's diameter is
>approximately 3.14. The current record is in the millions of decimal
>places. At the 27th Congress on Number Theory held at UCLA last week
>Dr. Michael Leermann of Princeton University revealed a fascinating
>new twist in the search for pi.
>
>Although current determinations of pi are more accurate than
>previous computer estimates, Leermann notes that there is a
>statistically significant trend for higher values of pi as
>determined over the last 15 years. "This cannot be written-off as a
>statistical fluke" claimed Leermann in a radio interview. "The
>result is far too significant to be due to random variation and our
>group has ruled out all possible systematic sources of error".
>
>The discrepancy shows up in the non-random centering of the values
>obtained around the average value. Prof. Mark Wellford at the
>University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK, agrees that there is no
>other possible explanation. "Pi has drifted over the last 15 years
>and we cannot explain it. As much as we hate to admit it, the
>universe has flexed and with it the mathematical laws we know and
>love".
>
>American Scientist
>3rd August 2002[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-13-2002]

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

I'm not interpreting passages to meet my needs -- I'm using two pints of judgement and a pinch of common sense.

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Is the true meaning of the passage (or any other) therefore a judgement call? How is that not interpretation? How often do you use this method to resolves apparrent contradictions in the Bible?

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

God: Oh compmage, why did you doubt me for so long?
Compmage: Partly because you rounded numbers off in the Bible.

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How about...
God: Oh compmage, why did you doubt me?
compmage: Well you didn't leave me much choice. A Bible that reads like bad fiction and no evidence pointing in your direction. Didn't give me much to go on there.
God: Now that you mention it I don't think I would have believed in me either.------------------
compmage