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Author
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Topic: Homo floresiensis
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 1 of 213 (153450)
10-27-2004 5:11 PM
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Tiny new species of human unearthed (click)
The remains of a tiny and hitherto unknown species of human that lived as recently as 13,000 years ago have been discovered on an Indonesian island. The discovery has been heralded as the most important palaeoanthropological find for 50 years, and has radically altered the accepted picture of human evolution. The skull and bones of one adult female, and fragments from up to six other specimens, were found in the Liang Bua limestone caves on Flores Island, which lies at the eastern tip of Java. The female skeleton, known as LB1 - or by the nickname "Ebu" - has been assigned to a new species within the genus Homo - Homo floresiensis. Examination of the remains shows members of the species stood just 1 metre tall and had a brain no bigger than a grapefruit. A handful of stone tools from the same period were also found in the caves, along with the bones and teeth of several dwarf stegodons, an ancestor of the modern elephant. Other animal remains, including rats, bats and fish, show signs that they were cooked around the time H. floresiensis inhabited in the caves. Homo sapiens are thought to have colonised Flores island between 55,000 and 35,000 years ago, meaning they must have lived alongside H. floresiensis for tens of thousands of years. What caused the demise of H. floresiensis is unknown. It is possible that they were out-competed for food and other resources by H. sapiens or that they were wiped out by a volcanic eruption about 12,000 years ago. Some reports are calling this "hobbit (wo)man" and there are skeptics that don't think it is a new species. One thing to consider is that it is normal for a species isolated on an island to trend to {pygmy versions \ smaller sizes} ( pygmy mammoths on Californias Channel Islands for instance), so this may just be a case of evolution to a smaller species from Homo sapiens. Enjoy This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-03-2005 19:58 AM Edited by RAZD, : updated email option and sig Edited by RAZD, : dbcoding symbol conversions
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 31 of 213 (153652)
10-28-2004 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
10-28-2004 8:02 AM
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Re: An informative blog entry
Nice article -- goes through all the logical explanations wit pros and cons. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, particularly if other specimens are found on other Islands or on Australia. One also wonders if this couldn't be the source of all those myths about the "little people" (hobbits notwithstanding) -- as I am of the belief that Neanderthals and H.erectus are also sources of some myths of trolls, ogres and such. And particularly if they can get some DNA ... to compare to the neander and human DNA ... enjoy. ps - I threw out the pygmyism from sapiens as a loss-leader, the skull shape (what I could see of it from the picture) is too different for me to consider it seriously, more like H.erectus. I used to have a composite picture of skulls that has gone missing with several changes in e-mail names (to avoid spam). 
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2004 8:02 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 42 of 213 (153714)
10-28-2004 12:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Quetzal
10-28-2004 12:09 PM
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Song of the Dodo
Have you ever read The SONG OF THE DODO: ISLAND BIOGEOGRAPHY IN AN AGE OF EXTINCTIONS by David Quammen? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684827123?... excellent and very readable.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Quetzal, posted 10-28-2004 12:09 PM | | Quetzal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 10-28-2004 12:57 PM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 49 of 213 (153867)
10-28-2004 7:25 PM
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adding frankypoo topic in here
http:// EvC Forum: What would we think if Percy.....
Frankypoo writes: I always get, "where's the missing link," and I assume that question to mean, "where's the mendelian genetic baggage carrying on into this generation." If that's what the question means... that according to mendelian genetics, there should be at least one anomolous popup of erectus in our genepool somewhere, asuming we came from erectus *prepares for a blow*. Anyway, that question vexed me too; however, in my archaeology class today my teacher put some skulls on the table. It ranged from a. africanus to habilis, then erectus, heidelbergensis, and then three more... the first of the three was a robust one, which he called cro-magnon, the second was clearly h. sapiens, then the last one everyone thought to be another erectus. However, he picked it up shaking his head to every attempt and finally said, "Modern aborigine. Just a few years ago. There's your genetic baggage." It exhibited, arguably, as many erectus traits as sapien traits. The take was either coexisting convergence, or sapien/erectus sex resulting in the earlier mentioned anomolous mendelian "popups" of genetic baggage. Evidentally, at least according to my teacher, you can find about as many gracile erectus looking aborigines today as sapiens in one population. Is it just me or do others see correlations between this bit by Frankypoo and the original information on the Homo floriensis? The mixture of traits? Add in comment from Iason and it gets even more interesting (http:// EvC Forum: Homo floresiensis)
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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brain power is a function of surface area more than volume, hence the convolutions in even normal brains to increase this. certainly the "grapefruit" size is equal to the size of many gifted children, so the ability to think cogently is not really an issue of brain size so much as culture, exposure to ideas (education), and data processing.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2004 8:17 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by Ben!, posted 11-12-2004 11:50 PM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 63 of 213 (154217)
10-29-2004 5:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by jar
10-29-2004 6:07 AM
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brain size vs abilities
jar writes: these people ... had enough intelect to make and use tools, hunt, make fire. there are several species of primate that are able to use tools and be able to pass such knowledge on to others in their group through social interactions - even some instances of totally taught behavior being transfered: american sign language for instance. there are two elements here that to me seperate out these primate\human specimens: (1) the number of tools that would appear to be kept, transported and used multiple times, and (2) the use of fire. what we don't know is if they learned these behaviors from the Homo sapiens that moved in to the island or did they have these skills before their arrival? I think of the myths of the little people being mischievous and trading objects for things like tools left out over night.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by jar, posted 10-29-2004 6:07 AM | | jar has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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chimps
mike the wiz writes: So why not include chimps in the human kind? Chimps Belong on Human Branch of Family Tree, Study Says
A new report argues that chimpanzees are so closely related to humans that they should be included in our branch of the tree of life. Chimpanzees and other apes have historically been separated from humans in classification schemes, with humans deemed the only living members of the hominid family of species. Now, biologists at Wayne State University School of Medicine in Detroit, Michigan, provide new genetic evidence that lineages of chimps (currently Pan troglodytes) and humans (Homo sapiens) diverged so recently that chimps should be reclassed as Homo troglodytes. The move would make chimps full members of our genus Homo, along with Neandertals, and all other human-like fossil species. "We humans appear as only slightly remodeled chimpanzee-like apes," says the study. 'Nuff said?
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by mike the wiz, posted 11-07-2004 7:07 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 80 of 213 (159048)
11-13-2004 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Quetzal
11-12-2004 9:05 PM
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Re: Chimps, Gorrilas, Humans, Orangutans
chimps are the closest, bonobos next, then gorillas ... (according to my latest info anyway  ) bencip: thanks for the info.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Quetzal, posted 11-12-2004 9:05 PM | | Quetzal has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: What is this latest info?
I had thought so too, but was corrected here. It was Sylas and is in the discussion about neander DNA and how close to human the neander and chimps are relatively speaking. http:// EvC Forum: Comparisons of Neandertal mtDNA with modern humans and modern chimpanzees complex relationship not all on the same "baseline".
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 97 of 213 (189991)
03-04-2005 7:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Jack
03-04-2005 5:46 AM
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Re: Latest news: not a diseased human.
thanks! just the other day I was wondering what new was developing here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Dr Jack, posted 03-04-2005 5:46 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: another theory
Interesting article, thanks. My feeling is that this is parallel evolution with the elements enlarged in florensis being the result of similar evolutionary pressures but giving slightly different results. It may also help define what elements in which parts of the brain are needed for minimum intelligence in different areas.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by Chiroptera, posted 03-05-2005 1:09 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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edited to add AIG article link
I would be interested in seeing such a cast. The pictures at the UFO site are almost humorous in their lack of scale and rather overemphasis on the difference in size of H. Floresiensis and a fully modern human (basketball star?). One would expect fringe groups to latch onto curious findings and then try to make of them things they are not. Try replying to a post by Andya Primanda ( Message 91 and Message 93)-- he is the best link to local information we have. {added by edit} We also have already seen the AIG article on this discovery:
Hobbits Were True Humans!
| Answers in Genesis
enjoy This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*27*2005 03:34 PM
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: edited to add AIG article link
and? ps - you should use the quote boxes to quote other posts
they are in square brackets: [ ] and the begin command is qs then end command is /qs (or quote and /quote) and there is no space between the brackets and the commands if you use {peek} on a post that is formated you can see the way it is done.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Update Scientific Lit on H. floriensis
thanks for the update. the casting is interesting, but obviously fairly rough. the direct link is http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...ture1/multimedia.html and there is more information with photos at http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...eature1/gallery1.html {adding}notice how this ties into the {age correlations} and other threads on dating -- they are looking at other ways to determine the ages and climate. http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...eature1/gallery3.html This message has been edited by RAZD, 04*05*2005 07:05 PM
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
Rebel AAmerican .Zen [Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by Loudmouth, posted 04-05-2005 6:00 PM | | Loudmouth has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: chimps
exactly.
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