The Deceitfulness of Man

I've been involved with and observed quite a few Bible debates. Those against the Bible's key argument is "there is no proof that it is the word of God." In response, we who defend the Bible try to show that there are very good reasons for believing it is divinely inspired.Currently, I'm leaning towards the idea that debate with non-believers will never prove effective. In other words, the conclusion that it is divinely inspired will not EVER be reached without conversion. I will attempt to prove this, with the Bible, and why I think apologetics should be for increasing and defending the faith within the Church Body, and not for those outside.All I'm doing is going through my Bible and pulling out some highlighted passages. I'm sure there are more relating to this...In John 15:18-19, it says"If the world hates you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world owuld love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."There is something spiritual going on here, no?John 10:26-27 "But you do not believe, because you are not of my Sheep, as I said to you. My sheep year my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."Now, often times non-believers will require facts before believing in the Bible. We often respond by trying to show facts, but is that not agreement to the measuring stick they propose?Because in Romans 1:18-20 it says..."For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who SUPRESS the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is MANIFEST IN THEM, for God has SHOWN IT to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE."In other words, it is the deceitfulness of Man that causes one to reject what is obvious, not lack of evidence. God has said all that is required to believe, exists within us.Also, in I Corinthians 1:18, it says..."For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing..."It seems to me that the Bible is saying, Unless you alter their status of "perishing," they will always think the message of Christ(Which I consider the whole Bible) is foolishness.In Isaiah 45:9, it also says to Question God is foolishness."Woe to him who strives with his maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the Earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?'"In Isaiah 53:6, I see an accurate description of most people. "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;"In II Peter 3:5, it says "For this they WILFULLY forget" in reference to creation and the FIRST judgement (Noah's Flood). It also calls these people scoffers, and those walking according to their own lusts.In I Corinthians 3:18, it says "Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise." 19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";"and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."In Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..."So, to those who are believers, do you agree or disagree with me? Again, my statement is that "Apologetics should be for defending and increasing the faith of believers, NOT for arguing with non-believers."I know the Lord can work in several ways, but I have never ever ever seen someone who after a debate has said "You know, you're right. I'd like to be saved." I think debate only pushes them further away.I've thought about this for a while, and just would like some input or some verses that point to the contrary of what I'm saying.David

I agree Halycon - and the non-Christians probably agree too! So I tend to stick to a few little pointers from Scirputre and showing that there are hints in science too.After that it is between them and their God, whoever he may, or may not, be.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-13-2002]

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
I know the Lord can work in several ways, but I have never ever ever seen someone who after a debate has said "You know, you're right. I'd like to be saved." I think debate only pushes them further away.

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I've thought about this for a while, and just would like some input or some verses that point to the contrary of what I'm saying.

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David

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Let me comment on successes that came out of past debates. I've been at this since 1990 on the internet, before that over the old BBBs when I had access to them through public school resources.

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In probably all of these forums there are mostly "lurkers" who are not at all confident enough to comment one way or another. They are seeking much needed information to make decisions. Some have heard some preaching in churches or on TV, some have read books about Christianity. These forums, however, present information in very interesting ways because of interactions not possible in other media. People can witness the struggle of truth against untruth, Bible doctrine v. atheism. There is always someone out there that will get around to bringing up a mystery that has bugged them long.

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I've been in groups with a few thousand members, where only a dozen actually post, mostly critics of Christianity. People find it highly interesting those critics are almost always friendly toward all other religions, even mutually exclusive Islam, which tolerates no other way to God. That raises interest. What is the agenda there? It must be large, and vehement, targeting only Jesus Christ. Even some come claiming they are Christians, yet defy the Bible which disciples believers. So observers remain, watching the "show".

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I wish I had kept count of the many private emails I got and still get from lurkers, and sometimes even critics whom I opposed. Few of them ever relent, sometimes leaving in defeat only to begin their crusade of dis-information elsewhere. Most who do relent rarely ever admit publicly their misguidance, just dropping out, but people do learn who is on the wrong side by comparing posts, then going to their Bibles. Almost all of those emails were to let me know they had finally decided for Christ. Some went beyond that asking to be told what to do next. Even some "burned out" pastors have confided in their state, repenting, vowing to return to the ministry, having been side-tracked by those long lists of false "Bible Contradictions", but lacking the ability to deal with them. In Australia there was a series of evangelistic crusades, resulting in many home churches springing up all over the land. Many of those people sought more information, ending up on debate forums, becoming confused. Several of those contacted me for further guidance, actually relying on me to get some sermons to them initially until one of their body would rise up to preach his own, as well as how to set up churches and run them. I went about showing them some online sermon development courses and some books to purchase, as well as how to study the Bible for direct messages to preach. I was able to direct them to several other type resources online, and how to connect with the various denominations according to how they expressed their own beliefs. I could match them up with at least one organized church body.

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Those are some of the reasons I spend the great amount of time in apologetics online. Christianity was designed to be shared with non-believers, not the righteous. We are called to reach the world with the good news of salvation, not our better neighbors who already have Christ. I think it is fitting to model our agenda partly after the event of Paul making his way to Mars Hill, where he debated successfully with the elite thinkers of his day, converting some of them. Acts 17. He found them "too superstitious". I don't let the raging of the heathen discourage me. It only lets me know I'm on the right track. If they were happy with my messages, I would have much to worry about.

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Blessings abound to you.[This message has been edited by Wordswordsman, 10-19-2002]

You sound like a sincere person, conversant with scripture and good hearted. You even follow the appropriate format here, unlike a certain epistle writer who has answered your post.I respond to inform you that I, for one, began my career as a ministerial student. I attended Bible College, was a devout Christian, congregational leader, creationist, and took down excellent grades in science.To make a long story short, I became convinced that my professors of religious philosophy were not up-to-speed in matters scientific. Now, nearly forty years later, I am also convinced that they were not up-to-speed in matters scriptural.I know that there are some here who once believed as you do. For those of us in that category, changing our minds is not about to happen. You see, we have already changed our minds.If I were a religious man I would be more interested in the religion of Jesus, rather than a religion about Jesus. I think you know what I mean.I would encourage you to hang-in and share with us. We all have things to learn. And we all need the exercise of reasoning these things out.Good luck to you,db------------------
Bachelor of Arts - Loma Linda University
Major - Biology; Minor - Religion
Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine
Embryology - La Sierra University
Biblical languages - Pacific Union College
Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College

In probably all of these forums there are mostly "lurkers" who are not at all confident enough to comment one way or another. They are seeking much needed information to make decisions. Some have heard some preaching in churches or on TV, some have read books about Christianity. These forums, however, present information in very interesting ways because of interactions not possible in other media.M: Most lurkers on this site probably come for scientific information of which they are ignorant...others as you say later..just come to watch the show.WS:
People can witness the struggle of truth against untruth, Bible doctrine v. atheism.M: You got it backwards WS:
There is always someone out there that will get around to bringing up a mystery that has bugged them long.M: Like why you don't understand the basics of science yet claim you do.WS:
I wish I had kept count of the many private emails I got and still get from lurkers, and sometimes even critics whom I opposed. Few of them ever relent, sometimes leaving in defeat only to begin their crusade of dis-information elsewhere.M: Sort of like your bailing out of the evolution debate in disgrace?WS:
Most who do relent rarely ever admit publicly their misguidance, just dropping out, but people do learn who is on the wrong side by comparing posts, then going to their Bibles. Almost all of those emails were to let me know they had finally decided for Christ.M: Give an example of one scientist you know that went from being a scientist to a christian fundamentalist.WS:
I don't let the raging of the heathen discourage me. It only lets me know I'm on the right track. If they were happy with my messages, I would have much to worry about.M: We feel exactly the same way about you....and you should worry about your educational deficit in science given your opposition to it.

H:
Currently, I'm leaning towards the idea that debate with non-believers will never prove effective. In other words, the conclusion that it is divinely inspired will not EVER be reached without conversion. I will attempt to prove this, with the Bible, and why I think apologetics should be for increasing and defending the faith within the Church Body, and not for those outside.
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If more people of all faiths shared this opinion it would be a much more peaceful and just world.

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
I will attempt to prove this, with the Bible, and why I think apologetics should be for increasing and defending the faith within the Church Body, and not for those outside.

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From CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY: "The word "apologetics" comes from the Greek word "apologia," pronounced, "ap-ol-og-ee’-ah." It means, "a verbal defense." It is used eight times in the New Testament: Acts 22:1; 25:16; 1 Cor. 9:3; 2 Cor. 7:11; Phil. 1;7,17; 2 Tim. 4:16, and 1 Pet. 3:15. But it is the last verse that is most commonly associated with Christian apologetics."but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence"
(1 Pet. 3:15, NASB).Therefore, Christian apologetics is that branch of Christianity that deals with answering any and all critics who oppose or question the revelation of God in Christ and the Bible. It can include studying such subjects as biblical manuscript transmission, philosophy, biology, mathematics, evolution, and logic. But it can also consist of simply giving an answer to a question about Jesus or a Bible passage. The later case is by far the most common and you don’t have to read a ton of books to do that."
http://www.carm.org/apologetics.htmIf apologetics is applied to the Body of Christ, then you are implying an audience of people who are critics of the Word of God, with no hope of or understanding of the hope that is within them. I would say such people are not part of the Body of Christ, but are without the camp.I have found some debate forums where there are reasonable people who are critics, but have not closed their minds to the gospel. Many started off thinking themselves Christians, but suffered some setback. It turns out most never really had a relationship with the Lord. Those places are good ones for apologetics. All they need is some good information to replace the bad preaching and teaching that put them off. Often their problems arose simply from being involved in one of the many heretical cults some list as Christian denominations. A good list is found at http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htmMost people in cults are actually interested in finding truth. They are currently deceived, needing a little light to guide them out. Of course, they initially resist, fearing the unknown of switching beliefs. That is what apologetics is about. It isn't worth the effort to defend the faith against hard-core skeptics who insist on measuring Christianity against all the other world religions and atheist views. They only consume valuable time needed in places bearing fruit. Once they make it clear their minds are made up as permanent critics, it's time to drop them, let them go.Luke 9:5
"And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them."Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."The dogs are people like literal dogs that roam without an owner, accountable to no man. They are the ones who are relentless faultfinders, hunters of motes, backsliders, apostates, fools, clouds without rain, whether they are atheists, agnostics, or heretical cult members. It isn't proper to attempt to convince them of truth. Our job is to reveal truth in preaching/teaching, leaving the Holy Spirit to convict, convince. We are to depart from their company when it is obvious they are close-hearted to that Spirit conviction.Meanwhile, in the process of unveiling the closed hearts, some bystanders learn and are ministered to by the Spirit of God.One of the signs of a closed mind is the initiation of terms meant to directly attack the person presenting the truth. They hate the truth, can't do anything about it, so turn on the Christians. Those are termed the true fools in no uncertain terms by God. Most have no hope. When they begin answering by labelling people as idiots, they themselves reveal they are idiots, morons, etc. Several on this forum are already so discovered, and so marked.Another sign of a deceived person is the way they deal with evolution discussion. There are a few forums where people are fairly reasonable, not so foolish as to declare there is no science in Creationist views. Obviously, for a person to declare only evolutionists have all the truth of science, they are deceived, not worth time debating. They simply dismiss the creationist organizations whose peer reviewed journals are not subject to the bias of evolutionists who ignore any possibility of ID. Their journals don't permit creationist views since they claim any science tenet with a biblical air is purely religion, not science. It is a regretable impasse. The atheist's only hope is to hide behind their definition of science.I wouldn't let the claims of hundreds of Christian sects influence your perception as to who needs apologetics. There are many denominations that are squarely Christian, being conformable to basic essential elements of salvation. They have the biblical Christ in common, else they are not at all Christan. Divisions have created sects/denominations for many reasons, rarely over salvation tenets or even the teachings of Christ. Most of the differences are in styles of worship, for which there are no guidelines for Christians except to worship in spirit and in truth. There are lots of ways to go about that. Others differ over sanctification, sacriments, observances, etc, all minor elements. If you list all the major and minor elements and begin arranging them in sets, it is possible to create thousands of sects. But most denominations are together in the major ones, leaving only hundrds of possible combinations of minor elements. It hardly indicates a divided Body of Christ. Some doing things differently is permitted by Christ, who admonished His disciples, upon their witness of someone not physically following that band of Jesus and those disciples, ministering differently, not as they did. Jesus told them to leave the man alone, for whoever is not against Him is for Him.I concentrate on people actually seeking truth, tolerating hard core critics for a season.

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Another sign of a deceived person is the way they deal with evolution discussion. There are a few forums where people are fairly reasonable, not so foolish as to declare there is no science in Creationist views. Obviously, for a person to declare only evolutionists have all the truth of science, they are deceived, not worth time debating. They simply dismiss the creationist organizations whose peer reviewed journals are not subject to the bias of evolutionists who ignore any possibility of ID. Their journals don't permit creationist views since they claim any science tenet with a biblical air is purely religion, not science. It is a regretable impasse. The atheist's only hope is to hide behind their definition of science.

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Weeell, that being the case, perhaps you'd care to respond to the scientific discussion on this thread: Challenge to Wordswordsman, especially Mammuthus's posts 24, 25, and 29, and my post 30, which have gone completely unanswered. Here's your chance to convince people that your creationism is really science. It would be especially interesting to us in light of your repeated assertions that you've soundly defeated so many evil atheistic scientists in debate all those years. I guarantee if you can somehow defeat me, I will admit it here in open forum for all to see. Good luck.

WS:
One of the signs of a closed mind is the initiation of terms meant to directly attack the person presenting the truth. They hate the truth, can't do anything about it, so turn on the Christians. Those are termed the true fools in no uncertain terms by God. Most have no hope. When they begin answering by labelling people as idiots, they themselves reveal they are idiots, morons, etc. Several on this forum are already so discovered, and so marked.WSost 92 to Mister Pamboli of the "Only one version thread".
"I've tried to be civil, but that is really impossible with people as IGNORANT, MORONIC as yourself about these
...continued..
It is actually sin for me to continue with you past this point, having to depart from the company of a FOOL."HmmmmWS:
Their journals don't permit creationist views since they claim any science tenet with a biblical air is purely religion, not science. It is a regretable impasse. The atheist's only hope is to hide behind their definition of science.M: You were given multiple chances to demonstrate what the testable and falsifiable hypothesis for creation is and you failed as have all creationists before you...it does not fail just one defintion of science but ALL definitions.[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 10-23-2002]

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Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
I've been involved with and observed quite a few Bible debates. Those against the Bible's key argument is "there is no proof that it is the word of God." In response, we who defend the Bible try to show that there are very good reasons for believing it is divinely inspired.
I think debate only pushes them further away.

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I've thought about this for a while, and just would like some input or some verses that point to the contrary of what I'm saying.

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David

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--Everytime I hit this forum the devil attacks me with the muligrubs. I know my words will be twisted into scorn by who? The poor Evo who has no more faith than his minute atomic mechanism(s)? No, no! I myself am my worst enemy; the deceitful heart within knows no quenching of its pride, its stench, its misery, its wretchedness, its doom of death, etc.
--Matt 28, Mark 16: Go out into all the world, etc. and preach the Gospel.
When Quetzel, for example, several posts above, knows he will win the battle against creationism, we all know he is really crying out for help. When a soul is crying out for help (despite any proud utterances) that soul is a candidate for Salvation (from vicarious levels of damnation) via the Redemptive Designer of the cosmos, who forgives all sin and restores men via the mechanism of the Christ-crucified-risen-from-the-dead (Biblical) model.
The mere fact that our debating even continues shows that a Gospel-Creation banner is staked here and is not quenched.
Granted, I know it's 10,000 times easier to save a Haitian Voodoo Devil worshipper than an Evo, so I spend alot more time with the Haitian communities seeing hundreds and thousands of them accept the Gospel-Creation model for their lives, and rejoice with them accordingly.Yours in the GospelPhilip

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Phillip ... it's 10,000 times easier to save a Haitian Voodoo Devil worshipper than an Evo, ...

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Perhaps because Voodoo Devil worship is simple-minded, and only slightly more so than what you offer to replace it; whilst sound evidence is acquired with great effort and fearless reasoning takes much courage.Science places the bar very high indeed. Superior knowledge requires exceptional intellect and superlative effort. Delusion and self-deception require none of the above.The bar is raised. We are no longer in the Bronze Age.Wake up and smell the atomic pile.db------------------
Bachelor of Arts - Loma Linda University
Major - Biology; Minor - Religion
Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine
Embryology - La Sierra University
Biblical languages - Pacific Union College
Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College

Philip - if you are trying to recruit people to a "Creation-Gospel banner" then it's not surprising you are failing in a country where people have a reasonable science education, and succeeding where education systems may not be so good.Why not just try recruitin them, if recruit you must, to the Gospel, and that alone.You bang on about it being easier to save a "Haitian Voodoo Devil worshipper" than an evo - what about the evo's who are already "saved"?

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Originally posted by Karl:
Philip - if you are trying to recruit people to a "Creation-Gospel banner" then it's not surprising you are failing in a country where people have a reasonable science education, and succeeding where education systems may not be so good.

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Why not just try recruitin them, if recruit you must, to the Gospel, and that alone.

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You bang on about it being easier to save a "Haitian Voodoo Devil worshipper" than an evo - what about the evo's who are already "saved"?

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--Good point, I stand corrected, evo's who are already saved, that is. I have evangelical friends who are evo's who claim to already be saved; who am I to doubt a theistic evo's Gospel faith, except in the light of this subtle discourse on 'The Deceitfulness of Man'.
--The god-of-the-gaps fallacy (if there truly be such a thing) befalls the theistic evo's gospel faith. I find the god-of-the-gaps premise extremely difficult and repugnant, but, like you said, if he's saved already, I stand corrected.Philip

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Originally posted by doctrbill:

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Phillip ... it's 10,000 times easier to save a Haitian Voodoo Devil worshipper than an Evo, ...

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Perhaps because Voodoo Devil worship is simple-minded, and only slightly more so than what you offer to replace it; whilst sound evidence is acquired with great effort and fearless reasoning takes much courage.

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Science places the bar very high indeed. Superior knowledge requires exceptional intellect and superlative effort. Delusion and self-deception require none of the above.

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The bar is raised. We are no longer in the Bronze Age.

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Wake up and smell the atomic pile.

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db

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Trust me, I have.Philip M. Traynor, DPM, MSBS
Diplomat American Board of Podiatric Medical Specialties in Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery.
Masters Biomedical Science, Barry Univ, Miami
Bachelor of Science, Psychology, Univ of DE
Assoc. of Applied Science Elect Eng Techn., Craven Cmty College, NC.(I count it all dung, without Christ, man highly deceived by narrow minded-empirical science, forgetting that he (man's psyche) is real, too)

Originally posted by Philip:Trust me, I have.

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Philip M. Traynor, DPM, MSBS
Diplomat American Board of Podiatric Medical Specialties in Podiatry and Podiatric Surgery.
Masters Biomedical Science, Barry Univ, Miami
Bachelor of Science, Psychology, Univ of DE
Assoc. of Applied Science Elect Eng Techn., Craven Cmty College, NC.

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(I count it all dung, without Christ, man highly deceived by narrow minded-empirical science, forgetting that he (man's psyche) is real, too)You're a fine example of compartmentalization.