We are the gods..

Ok..take the first verse in the bible, and lets tear it apart...if you read that in the beginning, we see that there was a beginning , and that there seems to be a time frame in that beginning by the first word in the first verse ie: IN.. so a point of time before God created is shown here.. in the beginning...something existed before man...and we see that God was there in the time before the beginning.
We are privelaged to have such an old document of the beginning of creation...evolution does not document its beginning, it only trys to find or verify the "beginning". Trying to show proof to mans existance. So evolutionist should start their quest in the BIBLE. Why?.. Because it is the only documentation of the very same things they are trying to prove to have come about...their evolution theorys jump the gun, they over see the proof of things created. In the bible, we have testiment written of a creation by God in the BEGINNING of the time of things prepared by God for man to exist in. now if we continue to tear apart the first verse in the bible, we could see more in that verse.. ie: not only a portion of time before the beginning of creation. ...but a God doing it, an existance of some relm where God lives or exists..before creation, an before the BEGINNING . verse 2 goes on to read: AND THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID; and darness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of G od moved upon the face of the waters. NOW LET'S tear this verse apart so we can see the proofs of things before they were made, and the state that they were in: Earth is mentioned in the first verse, and again in the second verse, but now we are being told that the earth was without form: not square, not triangular in shape, or even put into a round ball, or flat..it was without form..ok now we understand an earth was created, but now we are told how it was created..let's look closer at this crated earth and how it was done..ok..the verse then states that the earth was VOID..not put together yet..so we can safely say, earth was scattered throughout the vastness of the deep..we call space.. earth had not come together yet.As the verses go on, you will be told of how God moved upon the face of the waters, and how God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT. and so on untill we see that earth STILL has not become a round shape as of yet...other things were created and commanded to be made or seperated from ect. ...stars as we call them were started as the fermanment created, and after alot of seperating, God finally commands the waters to gather in one place, and the dry land to appear..now we have a name for that dry land.. God calls it EARTH. SO TO SAVE you time and argument between each other, take the bibles first chapers and bust loose ya'll...I mean you tear it apart bit by bit, and search each word, and make a time table of the creation that is being explaned to you.. things did not evolve, they were created..and if you read closely... God made different flesh.. animal flesh , bird flesh, fish flesh. human flesh, and God commands each flesh to go and reproduce with its own type of flesh. We are commanded not to mix the seed. You go from there..BUT YOU MUST READ THE BIBLE , it is the only existing proof of creation from the BEGINNING .
alle

john.. i visited your site you left on your last post, and i dont want to make a cruel comment...just what i thought of that particular link/site..and the fact that you yourself put the link there for me to visit...which tells me only one thing...you dont believe cration..you dont believe in God...and you're trying to find some reasoning to your spiritual delema...and that the works written on that link are part of your thought process...and frankly john, i believe ....you have fallen to your own bewilderment on anything spiritual...you seem to be filling your mind with the waste of useless words that abound in someone elses though process, which tells me you have not yet found the truth to anything spiritual. you seem to be wearing your rain shoes puddle hopping from someone elses
beliefs, and it appears to me you are very confused in anything you believe...which is a good thing in that you are searching for the truth. Jesus said: Seek and ye shall find.. so keep seeking john..you will find the truth someday..after you have come to the end of your reasoning, then will you assess the findings of your ventures, and choose your belief..The bible tells us :to seek Jesus first...test him that he may show you the truth...and he will show you he is the true god...I just have this last thing to say to you John...this post is not here to offend you in any way..it is just what i feel you are trying to do...i was also at this point in my life...but there comes a time to choose...i think you are about to that point....but that is my opinion of all your posts to me...not are you avoiding the topic of creation vs evolution..lol you keep leaving me links and sentences about how you are not convenced of a true god that exists. again i was doubtfull about god in the past...but his truth will prevail in your life..but he cannot make you choose him.. that is ok..that is your decision...READING THE BIBLE AS A READ, is not what God meant for us to do..he said to SEARCH the scriptures that he may show you proof that he is who he is, and has done what he has done for you personally john.. RIGHT RIGHT , i'm not a preacher...im just shareing again...i was bound to hell before i met Jesus, and gave my heart to him..i was forgiven for my past present and future sin according to him.. NOW IF YOU READ THE BIBLE 4 times and once in hebrew, i simply cannot believe you took it in...(as truth)..because when i read it i got excited that there is a God that forgives all who come to him..open arms.. he forgives our sins .he forgets our sins..he is a forgiving God..and i personally cannot believe that if someone comes to Jesus for forgiveness that Jesus wouldnt forgive them..because Jesus went to hell where we sinners should be for our sins.. Jesus paid for our sins by dying on the cross..were we should have been. im writting this john because you are hinting to me to answer your real question..and that is about the salvation that Jesus offers all men.
That you are confused about a God that seems cruel, unjust , mean,and allows injustice to abound..you are sooooooo so wrong..
You did not read the bible john...you flew thru it in a pissy manner..seeking the bad ,the ugly..and the wrong that was used to show you that the end result of these acts are hell. Read it again john..this time read it like your life depends on its message it has for all men.. because one day when things do come to pass that are written in the bible,, it will be too late to choose...HEY I DONT WANT TO BE IN THAT SINKING BOAT..i amd sure you dont want to be...so try it again.. this time..read the bible like God was doing something great for you..because all men deserve the lake of fire because of sin. we are born in sin, and untill we come to Jesus for forgivness, we could die in our sin without that forgiveness, and end in the lake of fire for eternity.. how do i know this.. God said so in the bible..in his word.. i choose to believe it...why.. because i do not want to go to hell.. it is the hope i have in what Jesus did for me.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE> the word of God.. i choose to believe he created the heaven and the earth.. its sad to hear people reject Jesus and his forgiving power..He is such a forgiving God..he is so giving, that he GIVES us the POWER to become his children. He lets us CHOOSE or reject him because he didnt create us as a slave. Who God sets free, is free indeed.. Jesus came to give us life, and to give it abundantly.HE CREATED/HE CAUSES US TO COME TO HIM/..satan is a liar..he comes like a lion seeking whom he can devoure...satan knows his destination is gate: HELL. Jesus is our judge for what we do here on earth and he is the rewarder of thoes who love him. Jesus is so just, that he must judge sin..and reward thoes who love him...he is only offering you a way back to him... and a way from being cast into hell for eternity if one chooses to reject him.. now there is no other god before him..those who choose other gods will be judged .
so i got a grip...i choose jesus...thats my choice...you have your own choice...i cant make you choose jesus...im not you.. im not going to convence you to choose him..im just telling you about him..that he created...because i DO HAVE PROOF HE CREATED ALL. I have the bible that he wrote.. this is the topic i started on , but i felt i had to address your posted concerens, because that is what i was reading that you were hinting to me..that you needed some light to the confusion you are having in your decision makeing...I TELL YOU THIS JOHN. choose Jesus...what if it is true...you know..what if it is really true...common you know what i am talking about john..what if the bible is true...you read it four times remember...what if there is a hell and a heaven...what if one day Jesus does return and judgement starts..and hell is real and many unbelievers are cast into hell for eternity john...what if...i know i dont want to go there.. so Jesus and what he did for me is all the hope i have...BUT IF THE : WHAT IF is true...it wont be too late for me..because I HAVE CHOSEN HIM ALREADY.. its too late after you expire..that is when you judgement starts..I DONT WANT TO end up in hell...so i choose Jesus.
The bible tells us: NOW IS THE TIME TO ACCEPT..because you do not know if your soul is required of you while you are sleeping.. you again know what i mean john.. you read the bible 4 times remember..
WELL NUFF SAID...im not a preacher..just addressing your concernes you left for me to answere john..
allen

oy, you cut'n'paste from the bible or something?Listen up. I don't buy your claims because it was based on a book which has been translated and retranslated and infiltrated with many false doctrines as Original Sin and Trinity and Genesis and Jesus as God and others... THE BIBLE IS NOW JUST LIKE THE HUMAN GENOME, full with the words of others and viruses and junk. If you want to use a book to back your claims at least use the ORIGINAL TEXT![why am i involved in this?]

Andya:

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[why am i involved in this?]

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Glutton for punishment?

anydya..
that post was for john...i dont care what you believe...but if you want to debate what i cut n pasted ..have fun with yourself..no i wrote that..but the word of God will stand...
have a good day.

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Originally posted by allen:
You are living in what he already has done..
but let me continue with what the author of the original post mentioning the sequences of what came first without his documention.
If he goes to the bible and reads the first chapter, he will see that his posted sequences of creation are all wrong as in out of order..the documentation i have is proof. The bible...it is historical proof written by the creator himself..yet man cannot accept the truth of creation by GOD. As for you who have posted the reply: let me see Jesus do it, then you will call him God, He has done it, and Now you can call him God.. i would like to see you create anything in the like He has created: ie: a working order for man to live in . Dont make me laugh at you again by posting foolish undocumented facts or creations made by man himself...creation was made for man to dwell in with God.

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Not another one? If you say so, mate. *backs carefully away*And pardon me for posting "foolish undocumented facts".------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.[This message has been edited by mark24, 08-13-2002]

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Andya:

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[why am i involved in this?]

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Glutton for punishment?

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I certainly am, it seems.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
john.. i visited your site you left on your last post, and i dont want to make a cruel comment...

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Comment if you want. But you won't.

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which tells me only one thing...you dont believe cration..you dont believe in God...

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Yeah, I knew that.

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and you're trying to find some reasoning to your spiritual delema...

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My God, the arrogance is just dizzy-ing!!! The myopia... What you see is someone who has spent the better part of his life obsessed with the same issues, I wager, that you spend your time contemplating. AND I disagree with you. I have reason for every point of contention I hold.

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and that the works written on that link are part of your thought process...

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The parts I wrote, yes.

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you have fallen to your own bewilderment on anything spiritual...

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And you know this about me how?

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you seem to be filling your mind with the waste of useless words that abound in someone elses though process

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And believing a book written by an Israelite Priesthood 2.5-3 thousand years ago isn't filling your mind with someone else's thoughts? Please...

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which tells me you have not yet found the truth to anything spiritual.

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Again, the arrogance..... Not your beliefs == not true. Come down off of that pedastal and come up with something substantial. [quote][b]you seem to be wearing your rain shoes puddle hopping from someone elses
beliefs[/quote][/b]You seem to be throwing a lot of stones based on your assumptions of me.

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and it appears to me you are very confused in anything you believe...

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And I always will be confused until I agree with you, right? How did you become the final judge of truth? Snide.... fine, but deadly serious. Why should I believe you? Simple, direct question. Why should I believe you? [quote][b]which is a good thing in that you are searching for the truth. [/quote][/b]Sadly you are not, if you were you might find it within yourself to actualy discuss something instead of insisting, preaching, condescending and dismissing.

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Jesus said: Seek and ye shall find...

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No problem with that one.

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so keep seeking john...

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Yes father....

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you will find the truth someday..after you have come to the end of your reasoning, then will you assess the findings of your ventures, and choose your belief...

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I have chosen my belief. But unlike yourself, if I may extrapolate from your posts thus far, my beliefs are mutable and vary with evidence. Your beliefs are set in stone and nothing, however reasonable, will sway you from your steady course.

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The bible tells us :to seek Jesus first...test him that he may show you the truth...and he will show you he is the true god...

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Believe first, ask questions later. Why does this not seem backwards to you?

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I just have this last thing to say to you John...this post is not here to offend you in any way..

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Perhaps you should work on your presentation. Speaking to me as I were a child and you my mentor is terrible offensive.

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i was also at this point in my life...but there comes a time to choose...i think you are about to that point....

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.... condescending ....

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...not are you avoiding the topic of creation vs evolution...

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What?

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lol you keep leaving me links and sentences about how you are not convenced of a true god that exists.

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Right and you are providing me with no reason to believe otherwise. Really, all I need is evidence. Where is it?

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he said to SEARCH the scriptures that he may show you proof that he is who he is, and has done what he has done for you personally

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Look, if you want to search the scriptures, then pick something and lets analyze it. You see the word of GOD, I see a chaotic mess of contradiction, violence and horror. Prove me wrong. I dare ya.

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NOW IF YOU READ THE BIBLE 4 times and once in hebrew, i simply cannot believe you took it in...(as truth)

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Right because I came to a very different conclusion than you. Can you see the pretension?

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..because when i read it i got excited that there is a God that forgives all who come to him..open arms.. he forgives our sins .he forgets our sins..he is a forgiving God..and i personally cannot believe that if someone comes to Jesus for forgiveness that Jesus wouldnt forgive them..because Jesus went to hell where we sinners should be for our sins.. Jesus paid for our sins by dying on the cross..were we should have been.

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Have you any ideas how many similar tales there are in world mythology? Why chose your over those?

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im writting this john because you are hinting to me to answer your real question..and that is about the salvation that Jesus offers all men.

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ummmmmmm....... no. My real question is "Why should I believe your mythology over any other mythology when none of them have any demonstrable merit beyond the socio-political?"

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That you are confused about a God that seems cruel, unjust , mean,and allows injustice to abound..you are sooooooo so wrong...

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Then give me reason to believe otherwise. So far you've done no better than "because I said so' and the ever popular and ever circular 'the bible is true because it says its true."

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You did not read the bible john...you flew thru it in a pissy manner..seeking the bad ,the ugly..

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Why do you think you can get inside my head?

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and the wrong that was used to show you that the end result of these acts are hell.

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Back this up. I know you must be itching to quote something.

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Read it again john..this time read it like your life depends on its message

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You'll never believe me, but I did. I was raised christian. One day I realized that it does no good to believe if you believe the wrong thing. So I started searching, thinking the truth would shine. It didn't. And doesn't.

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HEY I DONT WANT TO BE IN THAT SINKING BOAT...

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Exactly my thoughts as well. But I have sense enough to realize that not every boat that CLAIMS to be the right one, actually is the right one. This boat leaks like a seive.

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i amd sure you dont want to be...so try it again.. this time..read the bible like God was doing something great for you..because all men deserve the lake of fire because of sin. we are born in sin, and untill we come to Jesus for forgivness, we could die in our sin without that forgiveness, and end in the lake of fire for eternity.. how do i know this.. God said so in the bible..in his word.. i choose to believe it...why.. because i do not want to go to hell.. it is the hope i have in what Jesus did for me.

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This is meaningless unless one already believes.I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE> the word of God.. i choose to believe he created the heaven and the earth.. its sad to hear people reject Jesus and his forgiving power..He is such a forgiving God..he is so giving, that he GIVES us the POWER to become his children. He lets us CHOOSE or reject him because he didnt create us as a slave.[/b][/quote]What you believe is fine by me, but why should I take your word for it?

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Who God sets free, is free indeed.. Jesus came to give us life, and to give it abundantly.HE CREATED/HE CAUSES US TO COME TO HIM/..satan is a liar..he comes like a lion seeking whom he can devoure...satan knows his destination is gate: HELL. Jesus is our judge for what we do here on earth and he is the rewarder of thoes who love him. Jesus is so just, that he must judge sin..and reward thoes who love him...he is only offering you a way back to him... and a way from being cast into hell for eternity if one chooses to reject him.. now there is no other god before him..those who choose other gods will be judged .

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MEANINGLESS UNLESS ONE ALREADY BELIEVES.

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because i DO HAVE PROOF HE CREATED ALL.

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Really, great... lets have it.

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I have the bible that he wrote..

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Nope, that's not it. You don't know your bible very well, or history for that matter.

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this is the topic i started on , but i felt i had to address your posted concerens, because that is what i was reading that you were hinting to me..that you needed some light to the confusion you are having in your decision makeing...

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This is insane.

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I TELL YOU THIS JOHN. choose Jesus...

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halle- freaking -luyah!!!!!

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what if it is true...you know..what if it is really true...common you know what i am talking about john..

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Pascal's wagar is flawed on so very many levels. You wanna talk. Take me up on it.

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what if the bible is true...you read it four times remember...what if there is a hell and a heaven...what if one day Jesus does return and judgement starts..and hell is real and many unbelievers are cast into hell for eternity john...what if...i know i dont want to go there.. so Jesus and what he did for me is all the hope i have...BUT IF THE : WHAT IF is true...

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What if it isn't? Even worse, what if you've chosen the wrong GOD? So far you've given me nothing but scripture. There are lots of scriptures out there. Suppose one of them is right, then we are both damned. This is the major flaw with Pascal's wager-- false dicotomy.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
anydya..
that post was for john...

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This is an open forum, Allen. Expect responses from anyone interested.Besides which, Andya is well worth a listen.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
anydya..
that post was for john...i dont care what you believe...but if you want to debate what i cut n pasted ..have fun with yourself..no i wrote that..but the word of God will stand...
have a good day.

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You're right. If you don't care what I, John, or anybody else here believe, then why should we care what you think?Anyway, I have read parts of your Bible, in English and Indonesian (my native tongue), and I don't know what's missing from the original text in Hebrew. Maybe you can show me a Hebrew Bible? Can you be sure if it's the _original text_?

im leaving john..go to church..

[/B][/QUOTE]You're right. If you don't care what I, John, or anybody else here believe, then why should we care what you think?Anyway, I have read parts of your Bible, in English and Indonesian (my native tongue), and I don't know what's missing from the original text in Hebrew. Maybe you can show me a Hebrew Bible? Can you be sure if it's the _original text_?[/B][/QUOTE]Hi Andya! I hope that i can provide a bit of an answer. John, feel free to jump in; your site is tough b/c it looks like you've run in to a lot of Christians who aren't really sure why they believe what they do but if you want to throw some specifics at me, i'll do my bestest.
The current versions of the Bible are pretty close to the Hebrew. The main difficulties lie in translating from a language with 4000-6000 commonly used words (meaning, obviously, that multiple definitions exist on a larger scale) to a modern language with a far larger, and more specific, vocabulary. For example, i (and quite a few other OEC's) take issue with the current translation of YOWM ("day" in Hebrew) in Genesis 1. In English, we have two alternate yet perfectly valid (depending on context) definitions: 'day' as in 'daytime' or 'day' as in the 24-hour day. YOWM, on the other hand, can be translated as either of the previous, or as "age/era/epoch". Obviously, this has an effect on whether one feels that Genesis contradicts current calculations of the age of the universe! It does not, however, affect the underlying message of the passage - that God created the universe and in a particular order.
There aren't a great deal of passages left that aren't widely accepted as the best (and literally valid) translation. In this case, we see 'day' in the Bible instead of 'era' because in other locations, YOWM coupled with an ordinal (first, second, etc) does refer to one day. Understandable that this became the accepted translation. In total, though, the footnotes at the bottom of a scholar's Bible will be quite forthcoming with potentially alternate meanings in any applicable passage. Read on!

John, i'm interested in your site. Do you mind discussing some of your points in a little more depth? I'll try to start w/just the first few to keep this post digestible.
1. "Focus on the trivial".
--I'm sorry that you've encountered Christians who have given you this impression. Whoever said that a haircut is related to faith? My hair got pretty long for a while, and my family and friends were sad, but only because i look really bad with long hair. I do try to refrain from profanity, though. Yeah, i know that it's a cultural thing. But i've tried saying fuck and it didn't really make me feel any better, so i've stopped. If you want to, fine, but don't let it affect the way you think about spiritual things.
2. "Good deeds are pointless...All that is required to enter heaven is a confession of faith..."
---John 3:16 is true. However, belief in Jesus and forgiveness of sins should not be construed as a license to act in any fashion b/c forgiveness is expected at a later date. If I truly believe, then i will do my best to act as God has called me, and i will require forgiveness when i fail. If you see someone who calls themself a Xtian but is acting without regard to the words of Jesus, then what is the point? Show me someone who is casually counting on this forgiveness as a license to ill, and i'll show you someone who doesn't truly believe and will therefore be in a lot of trouble pretty soon...The point is that Jesus has promised to answer for those that answer for him now.
Is there anything that you can do to distance yourself from the foregiveness of God? No...but the Bible spends a whooole lot of time talking about those who say the right thing but harbor different thoughts within. Can a child molester be saved? yes. Can you? yes. Can i? yes. The Bible said that the wages of sin are death. We have all, at some point in our lives, acted in a purely selfish and hurtful manner. Some are worse than others, yes, but if God truly loves us as His children, then nothing should separate us from what the Bible says is infinite mercy...except surface-level actions that do not represent belief!
Lots of people will tell you that they believe, and all of them will fail you at some point. You sound like you are intelligent enough to figure out which have failed because they are human and which have failed because they don't really believe...
As an aside, please note that while God's mercy is available for those who, in their heart, need mercy because they failed despite their best efforts...mercy and forgiveness do NOT imply witholding of judgement! JUDGEMENT IS MINE, God said. So while we can be forgiven, it would be foolish (and illiterate) of us to think that we will not be held accountable for our actions.

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Originally posted by degreed:
John, i'm interested in your site. Do you mind discussing some of your points in a little more depth?

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Not at all.1. "Focus on the trivial".I agree with you, actually. That these things are not related to a person's worth and/or spiritual life is exactly the point. And, yes, it is sad that I have encountered these reactions from all but a very few Christians

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2. "Good deeds are pointless...All that is required to enter heaven is a confession of faith..."

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However, belief in Jesus and forgiveness of sins should not be construed as a license to act in any fashion b/c forgiveness is expected at a later date.

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Agreed, again. You have made very much the argument I will eventually make once I get around to elaborating upon the content of that page. Of course, my arguments will not be from the point of view of a Christian. My take on the matter is that doctrines such as this one undercut personnal responsibility for one's actions. I have heard this case made point blank by Christians on too many occasions to count.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
My take on the matter is that doctrines such as this one undercut personnal responsibility for one's actions. I have heard this case made point blank by Christians on too many occasions to count.[/B][/QUOTE]That's unfortunate. More to the point, this is bigger than doctrine. It's funny to me to hear both christians and non-christians argue this point. I think we often overcomplicate things. One of my favorite passages is "judge a tree by the fruit that it bears". That's God's polite way of saying "you're smart enough to know that if it stinks, it's probably shit".But what hangs in the balance is eternal life. Elaborating on the passage I mentioned above, John 3:16, shows that this is the crux of what 'salvation' means to a christian. If God did create the universe, as the Bible claims, then He needs to exist outside of the dimensions that make up the universe. This is also referenced throughout the Bible as God says that He "was and is and is to come". As an aside, you will not find another god who claims this level of extra-dimensionality. Of course, to have created Time, one must live outside of time, rather than being subject to it. That's why, I think, God made sure that the point was emphasized, and it's also why I feel justified in giving less consideration to other gods when considering the Big Bang and who said "bang".But the slowly developing point is that the Bible notes that forgiveness is only granted to those who truly repent of their wrongs and truly attempt to pursue a relationship with Jesus. I, too, have heard different people of different faiths (not just christian) say some very shallow things. I think i'm smart enough to know shit from fruit, so i'm trying to follow the fruit. The difference, to me, is that i'm not required by God to be religious (i can't stand religion). The bigger difference is that, as opposed to any other faith, I have a relationship with someone who told me that he was beaten, whipped, and hung from a wooden cross by the nails in his flesh so that he could die for (and subsequently save) thousands of people that he never met. This kind of guy, I want to know better. It starts that simply...