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Author Topic:   The power of prayer: in action
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 211 of 304 (154088)
10-29-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by sidelined
10-29-2004 8:33 AM


Yea, and what would be the difference between me and Hitler.
I really hate when smart people such as yourself, who know the bible, and what Jesus was about start using Hitler for a comparison in a religious arguement.
It really just shows where your at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by sidelined, posted 10-29-2004 8:33 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by sidelined, posted 10-29-2004 10:18 PM riVeRraT has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 304 (154089)
10-29-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by riVeRraT
10-28-2004 7:19 PM


I think you have a lot to learn. Your ignorance will continue to keep you from what is righteous.
Considering you skipped half my post in favor of just calling me ignorant, I'm not overly concerned.
I can give you an example. What is one of the reasons Musslims do not want Christianity in their nations. I'll give you a hint: womens rights.
And this has the sum total of what do to with an African child born into a war zone having "everything he needs" to live an awesome life?
Whats wrong with both?
As long as someone believes in God, I see no problem with them doing something good both because it's good and because they love God. I also see nothing wrong with someone doing good because it's good, and because they love delicious chicken salad sandwiches.
Of course, It'd be stupid if I told someone that they could not do good without chicken salad sandwiches.
Try and learn from this little parable.
I think most of your answers lie within your own posts.
That's good, because you're sure as Hell not answering anything.
You want to know what/who God really is?
Look right inside your own heart, I promise you he's there.
See above, re: not answering.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 10-28-2004 7:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:31 AM Dan Carroll has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 213 of 304 (154090)
10-29-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:15 AM


Buzz - I'm not going to give you a free stats 101 - it's quite clear you are talking out of your hoop and have no idea what you are on about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:32 AM CK has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 214 of 304 (154091)
10-29-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by sidelined
10-29-2004 8:37 AM


Kind of like being plugged into a wall socket, almost orgasmic.
Something I never felt before, no matter how good I felt about something. No need for drugs now, lol.
Acts 2
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"
13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[2] "
They were drunk in the Spirit, of God. This still happens 2000 years later. Well, I haven't seen tongues of fire though. But I have seen and felt the rest. Haven't spoke in tongues yet either, but I see people who have.
Plus the feeling of the truth. you know the feeling you get inside of you, when it is accociated with truth? Times it by 1,000.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 10-29-2004 8:37 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 10:45 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 218 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 10:47 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 10-29-2004 11:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 215 of 304 (154092)
10-29-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:05 AM


quote:
I can't say that I ever lied to myself. I have rationalized things into a state of accepting it as something I cannot change, just to keep my head from blowing up, but the truth remains.
"Rationalization" is one of the many ways to lie to oneself.
Here's an example:
Joe's boss just fired him. Joe came in to work late every day for a week and his boss has the records to show that it's true.
Joe says, "My boss is such a jerk. Sure, I came in late every once in a while, but so do other people. I know the real reason he fired me; I was so good that he was afraid I would take his job!"
Here is a typical rationalization. Joe is clearly deceiving himself in order to soothe his ego and to resist admitting that he screwed up.
Here is a real life example from my own experiences:
I once worked for a crazy woman. Her expectations were unrealistic, and even though I had a degree in the field and years of experience, (she did not have either), she was a control freak to a truly ridiculous level. I put in my notice, and when she asked me why I was leaving, I was honest with her. I told her that she hired me to "manage" but it was she who really wanted to control every little thing in the workplace. I told her that her expectations of the job were unrealistic, that the pay was far lower than similar jobs in the area, she didn't respect my time off, and that she gave me a bait and switch WRT the hours I was to work. I also told her that I was possibly interested in doing some teaching and I couldn't do that from there.
A few days later, she had convinced herself that I had actually said that the main reason I was leaving was because I wanted to go off and teach.
I was astounded. We had gone to breakfast and had a meeting where I outlined, on paper, my issues with her, the job, and how what she expected for the money she paid was completely unreasonable.
She had turned it around completely in her mind, dismissed all of the negative things, and simply decided to believe that I was leaving for a completely different reason than I had stated.
This woman was otherwise pretty normal and functioning to the rest of the world (maybe not her family, but you know what I mean).
She was also completely deluding herself. It was easy for her.
Much easier than taking a hard look in the mirror.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-29-2004 09:32 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:53 AM nator has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 216 of 304 (154093)
10-29-2004 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by CK
10-29-2004 10:25 AM


OMG charles, look at the statistics in the dictionary. You are guilty of trashing the English language as well.
statistics do not have to be the scientific ones you are talking about, done by one group or another with at least 1000 people involved. A statistic is just that, a statistic. We analize them and get results, based on statistics and evidence.
If you pop 5 zits on your face, and 4 of them hit the mirror, then you can say 4 out of 5 zits hit the mirror, its a statistic, what else would you call it?
Now does that make it absolute? No. Stats change, all the time, in light of new evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by CK, posted 10-29-2004 10:25 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by MrHambre, posted 10-29-2004 11:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 304 (154095)
10-29-2004 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:28 AM


almost orgasmic.
Something I never felt before
Watch my complete and utter lack of shock.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:57 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 304 (154096)
10-29-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:28 AM


quote:
Kind of like being plugged into a wall socket, almost orgasmic.
I suspect I know exactly what you are referring to. But it was a psych trick I pulled on myself, and I could reproduce it, and god did not manifest in any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:57 AM contracycle has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 219 of 304 (154099)
10-29-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by nator
10-29-2004 10:29 AM


Yes, I completely agree with you. That was such a good story.
I run into people like that all the time. But I ask myself, who are these people fooling. I got so fustrated by people that are like that, I went to extremes to find out if they really convinced themselves, or they were just hiding the truth from others, when really deep down inside they knew the truth.
I found that, yes some people really do know what they do, and and how they lie, and 2 some people are so busy listening to themselves when you speak that they totally miss what you are saying. they want things to go their way so much that they just block out what you are saying as you say it, that they never hear it.
When you come to Christ, you tend to get rid of those traits and go in the opposite direction, and care about what people have to say, listen to them, become sensitive to their needs, and think before saying something that might hurt them.
Have you ever convinced yourself of a lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by nator, posted 10-29-2004 10:29 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by nator, posted 11-01-2004 9:09 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 220 of 304 (154100)
10-29-2004 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dan Carroll
10-29-2004 10:45 AM


This is what happens when you open up to people, lol
My Sex life is fine d00d!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 10:45 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 221 of 304 (154101)
10-29-2004 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by contracycle
10-29-2004 10:47 AM


Care to explain it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 10:47 AM contracycle has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 304 (154104)
10-29-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by nator
10-29-2004 9:54 AM


Absolutism and Moral Relativism
scraff writes:
Do you think that all of the males in patriarchical theocracies don't want to keep all of the power and privilage that comes with being male?
The US wasn't even a theocracy but women's rights sufferagettes were spit on, jailed, vilified in the press, had lit cigars thrown on them, and generaly reviled by the men who didn't want to give up any power.
It is interesting when observing European History how the "church people" who claimed God as the divine source of revelation were very conservative, absolutist, and patriarchal.
The cultural changes that led to the Rennaissance and, later, to the Enlightenment were based on thinking outside the cathedral, so to speak. I have followed this discussion with great interest. two points seem to be proven to me.
1) There is more than one view on any event, and it often pays to have a rational, logical approach rather than an emotional, passionate one. I would not go so far as some do and mock the concept of God, however. You are free to do so, of course.
There will be times in your life, however, where logic and science will be unable to comfort you. I do agree with you, Scraff, in that religious people have often been more callous towards their fellow humans than many of the enlightened thinkers. What a paradox!
2) What is the fascination with spirituality by otherwise unspiritual people? Are they fascinated by the bizarre reasoning and belief paradigms within believers? Did it ever occur to them that a world without a Deity ultimately deifies self? Human potential! You need not worship a "sky daddy" when you yourself shall someday become one!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-29-2004 10:06 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by nator, posted 10-29-2004 9:54 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by nator, posted 11-01-2004 9:16 AM Phat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 223 of 304 (154106)
10-29-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by nator
10-29-2004 9:42 AM


Everyone who hears voices inside their head that tells them to do things is most likely a nut, yes.
Or self-deluded.
Even if it is all good? If it was bad, I would be afraid.
Aren't you doing everything you can to get into heaven? Aren't you even a little bit scared of going to hell?
I have never wanted to be a bad person, I think most people are born this way, and life makes into something else. That matches who God says we are, and what we were created for. Getting to know him has just increased it.
Who wouldn't be scared of going to hell, if they knew it existed.
I am not afarid of going to hell, in as much as the good has been increased in my heart, due to a better understanding of why we are here. To me it takes more courage to be good. I have always felt that you get what you deserve in life, if I am a bad person, ans went to hell, then that is what I deserved, I am not afarid of that, since I have no desire to be bad. It is not what drives me to be good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by nator, posted 10-29-2004 9:42 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by nator, posted 11-01-2004 9:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 224 of 304 (154108)
10-29-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:32 AM


Randomness and Wishful Thinking
One of the major reasons people believe in the effectiveness of prayer, amazing coincidences, or meaningful "signs" from the beyond is their lack of mathematical ability. It has been demonstrated repeatedly that people overstate the likelihood of an event or risks of certain outcomes due to their gross misunderstanding of the laws of probability. If someone isn't able to work out the probability of an outcome as it relates to a card trick or a simple logic problem, why should we be surprised that he attributes a not-so-significant coincidence (like your fishing example) to the activity of his deity?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:32 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:46 AM MrHambre has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 225 of 304 (154109)
10-29-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 9:56 AM


riVeRraT writes:
I have decided to open myself up to this forum, and everything I tell you is completely honest, and from the heart. It was before, but now I hold no barriers between you and what is in my mind.
I appreciate that. Thanks for answering my question, BTW.I understand you have many posts to reply to. I hope you don't mind me asking some more.
riVeRraT writes:
I would say at least 30 people have told me this. They are people who haven't seen me in a while, and people who see me every day.
could it be that since you've been 'saved', you feel relieved and elated, smile more and generally your whole demeanour is more positive? It's very common that people who feel miserable and tired, look older. When people feel better about themselves they tend to 'appear' younger and attract similar comments. This happens, no matter what caused the change in the first place.
riVeRraT writes:
No, as matter of fact the bad things have decreased dramatically
Don't mean to sound patronising, but are you counting all the bad things, or is it just that now you tend to worry less about them, so you count less ?
I find that, when I'm feeling bad (for whatever reason) little misfortunes tend to stick in my mind for longer than when I'm feeling good. For example, if x bad things happen to me on a 'bad' day, I'll remember them for weeks to come. If x bad things happen to me on a 'good' day, a week later I've forgotten half of them. It's kind of a confirmation bias, I suppose.
riVeRraT writes:
As a matter of fact, I went to 4 churches and tried to play in "the band" but they were never interested (they would almost refuse me as I asked). When I came to my current church, I didn't even want to ask, because they were too good, and I didn't want to be let down again. But I did ask the worship team leader where I could get the music sheets of the music they were playing, he asked me why, I told him I play piano, then he asked me to join on the spot. Coincidence?
No, perfecty explainable: You admit that before you were saved you were feeling and looking worse and had bad habits (drink, pot, etc.) All these were reflected on your looks and attitude. It's no surprise the previous churches didn't want you in the band. Once your appearance and attitude improved, it was much easier for a church to have you in the band.
riVeRraT writes:
Please note, I am not bragging here. I just sharing what God can and will do in your lives as well. I am also publicly thanking him for the opportunity to server him and my fellow man.
I understand.
riVeRraT writes:
Because I never felt anything like it before. Its not like I'm thinking of something first all the time either, it can just come to me when I least expect it, and fill me with anyone of the gifts he has blessed me with. If I was capable of doing that to myself in my own mind, I think I would drop dead from shock on the spot.
Many people do that in their own mind. It's called self-suggestion. I know you think this is unique to you, but so does everybody else who are convinced they experience something 'special'.
riVeRraT writes:
Right, I never have been inspired in my 39 years of life, so I don't know what that is.
Why are you putting yourself down? We all have been inspired at some stage. It's just that now you attribute some special force behind your inspirations.
riVeRraT writes:
You can start to break things down and try to explain away each one of these things I posted, but you cannot explain away them as a whole.
But if each of these things can be easily explained to causes other than your faith, what is left as a whole? Nothing.
Listen, you obviously needed to turn your life around and you did that. You stopped the bad habits, improved your attitude towards life and others and are reaping the benefits. That's great! But why are you looking for someone/something else to take the credit? YOU are the one who tried and succeeded, YOU must take the credit.
Instead of having faith in imaginary beings, why don't you have some faith in yourself?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 9:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 12:04 PM Legend has not replied

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