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Author Topic:   The power of prayer: in action
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 304 (154110)
10-29-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:28 AM


Holy domain or wholly insane?
rat writes:
They were drunk in the Spirit, of God. This still happens 2000 years later. Well, I haven't seen tongues of fire though. But I have seen and felt the rest. Haven't spoke in tongues yet either, but I see people who have.
I have seen many puzzling events in the world of churchianity. I have been deluded at times. I have been in awe at times. I have been emotionally manipulated, yet I have by all of my internal measures been influenced by the Holy Spirit as well.
We can not nor should not try and prove anything to a non believer except one thing. By our actions and our attitudes, we can show the non believers that our lives are better and that our minds are clear.
They may never accept the God that we know, but we will have done our job of presenting Him in a good light and not a sideshow of freaky behavior and delusions of grandeur. It helps to step back and remember how they see us. We may be the only Jesus that they will ever meet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:22 AM Phat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 227 of 304 (154112)
10-29-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by nator
10-29-2004 9:54 AM


Do you think that all of the males in patriarchical theocracies don't want to keep all of the power and privilage that comes with being male?
The US wasn't even a theocracy but women's rights sufferagettes were spit on, jailed, vilified in the press, had lit cigars thrown on them, and generaly reviled by the men who didn't want to give up any power.
Its unfortunate that we have a communication problem, because we see eye to eye on a lto of things. Hopefully as we get to talk to ech other more, you will see this. I pray for it.
I agree with you whole heartdly, and thats what I'm saying causes all the problems that other nations have. That is what keeps them from wanting to be a free nation.
But it is the fault of man, not God. How could a man do that to someone, after reading the bible and Jesus's intentions. Then expect not to pay for it from God?
The explaination of not following God's ways, then suffering the lies of the devil seems to fit perfectly their.
My question, is why is it that someone like you who is as smart as you, cannot see that it is not from God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by nator, posted 10-29-2004 9:54 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by nator, posted 11-01-2004 9:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 228 of 304 (154115)
10-29-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
10-29-2004 11:14 AM


Re: Holy domain or wholly insane?
Yes, I fully understand that, and I realize I am treading on treacherous ground. But the church I come from is a church that operates in a fore-runner spirit.
Preaching on the internet is a new thing. Its hard for them to see my actions. Or really get a good sense of my attitude, with all the deception in the world. Probably the same reason why Pauls letters might seem judgemental to the non-believer.
But I know what kept me from God, and I am trying my best to explain what that was, and how it changed me. I am with the Lord, or trying to be. Pray that they would understand. I don't expect any miricles, but maybe one day 15 years from now, after they collect some more data, that might be able to apply what I am telling them.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-29-2004 10:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 10-29-2004 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 229 of 304 (154117)
10-29-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by nator
10-29-2004 9:46 AM


I think there is way too much influence over a statistic like that, and you would never know the truth from that.
I also think it really only matters what happens in your life, and how it applies to you. Then how you can make a change. That would be the individual part of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by nator, posted 10-29-2004 9:46 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by nator, posted 11-01-2004 9:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 230 of 304 (154119)
10-29-2004 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Dan Carroll
10-29-2004 10:25 AM


As long as someone believes in God, I see no problem with them doing something good both because it's good and because they love God. I also see nothing wrong with someone doing good because it's good, and because they love delicious chicken salad sandwiches.
This is where you mis-understand me. I agree with you. I keep telling everyone, I am not here to judge or say you need God to be good. You need God, for yourself, its what you deserve. It would be nice for you if you found him.
Of course you can see the fake from the real, and one day the reall will make itself known to you. Each one of our paths are different, but our destination is the same.
And I really wish you would stop twisting what I am saying about people in Africa. Its pretty simple. As a nation they have everything they need to be happy. Its by the fault of man that they don't. Not by the fault of God. It's our(man's) responsibility to correct the situation, not God's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 10:25 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 11:43 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 248 by mike the wiz, posted 10-30-2004 1:10 PM riVeRraT has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 231 of 304 (154123)
10-29-2004 11:42 AM


Riverrat - I caught two big fish
Shraff, concerning your story;
You are also guilty. I have listened to you - and even suggested prayers are unfalsifiable etc...But you have ignored Riverat's comments about the Holy Spirit - and dismissed what he said, just like your boss dismissed what you said. You have made him and others the equivalant of someone who kills their child etc..because of what they have experienced. These actions are the equivalent of me saying that all schizophrenics are murderers - so your ignorance of these events is equal to that of a creationist YEC who argues against the ToE with no knowledge of it.
Are you saying Buzsaw and Hangdawg and Riverrat are murderers?
Shraff writes:
"Rationalization" is one of the many ways to lie to oneself.
So am I rational or a murderer?
I suggest that you unbelievers cannot handle Riverrat's overwhelming joy - he's like a kid with a toy - and there's no convincing him that that toy isn't shiney and new and fun, and exciting - and happening.
Listen - You have not observed logic or reason at all here;
People who hear voices like schizophrenics, are seldom murderers - if anything, your ignorance of schizophrenia is prevailent. Most of them are harmless. So we can tick that nasty comment about Buz, Hangdawg and Riverrat off the list for a start.
Mr Hambre;
MrHambre writes:
One of the major reasons people believe in the effectiveness of prayer, amazing coincidences, or meaningful "signs" from the beyond is their lack of mathematical ability.
Well lets see - he's at the River - hence his name - the chances are that fish might be jumping - as that's where he is at - and his purpose is fishing. The chances of him seeing a big fish are good - it can not as a whole - prove much. However - you also believe this is an amzing coincidence - even none-believers acknowledge "amazing coincidences". Indeed, it takes no mathematical ability to acknowledge an amazing coincidence, and none-believers and believers alike - both acknowledge them. Infact - you'd probably just say "it was a coincidence". The only difference is that we "collect" them - and you are thereby sloppy with your maths.
However - are you observing maths Mr Hambre? IS this all Riverrat has suggested for his belief in prayer? Have you acknowledged all of that other stuff he said - or have you dismissed it because of your bias against such things? I mean - we already know what you think about people with faith.
So - it's altogether pretty shitty of you - to come on here trying to make him out to be some confused chump with no ability to do anything, as to thereby dismiss what he has said. Are you doing your math? He has a business which is succesful - how thick can he be? Even if this success in business is not an answered prayer - it still proves he is a bit of a wiz at his business, as it's got to be down to something he's doing right. Maybe you should divulge ALL the information.>
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-29-2004 10:45 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by MrHambre, posted 10-29-2004 12:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 304 (154124)
10-29-2004 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 11:31 AM


This is where you mis-understand me. I agree with you. I keep telling everyone, I am not here to judge or say you need God to be good.
See, this just isn't true. In response to me saying how I help others, your exact words were, "I'm sorry to say this, but taking God out of the picture, and teaching others to feel the same way, to me is not really helping."
And I really wish you would stop twisting what I am saying about people in Africa. Its pretty simple. As a nation they have everything they need to be happy.
And as individuals, they most certainly do not. Once again, how does a child born into a war zone have everything he/she needs to be happy?
Its by the fault of man that they don't. Not by the fault of God. It's our(man's) responsibility to correct the situation, not God's.
It is by no fault of the individuals that they are in this situation.
If God is everything you say it is, then it has the power to help these individuals. But it chooses not to do so. Meanwhile, God does choose to help you find the right place to pray.
Again... God's priorities, as far as who he's willing to help, and with what, are utterly fucked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 12:27 PM Dan Carroll has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 233 of 304 (154127)
10-29-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by MrHambre
10-29-2004 11:12 AM


Re: Randomness and Wishful Thinking
Too many not-likely coincidenses in a row.
I see things that can be explained away by the chance theory. But if it keeps happening to us, is it still chance? Did I all of a sudden get lucky and wise?
I have seen other church goers get all nuts over something that happened by pure coincidence. I have seen people make claims that were pretty rediculous. i.e. Some one took pictures of a baptism, and there was "orbs of light in the photos". To them it was angels or spirits. To me it was a light diffraction. When I looked at the pictures, I could see that it wasn't a light diffraction, because the orbs were random sizes and colors. Upon further investigation, I found out that the CCD chip in the camera was defective, and would produce those orbs when over exposed. Guess what the pictures were over-exposed. So I am not to quick to accept things as being from God.
Besides all that it comes from your heart so you will know when it happens.
The trick is keeping it real. Jesus showed us how difficult this really is. Thats why he had to save us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by MrHambre, posted 10-29-2004 11:12 AM MrHambre has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 234 of 304 (154132)
10-29-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Legend
10-29-2004 11:13 AM


could it be that since you've been 'saved', you feel relieved and elated, smile more and generally your whole demeanour is more positive? It's very common that people who feel miserable and tired, look older. When people feel better about themselves they tend to 'appear' younger and attract similar comments. This happens, no matter what caused the change in the first place.
I think I'll change my alias to test dummy.
Yes I thought about that. When I have meet with these people, I feel as though I was my normal self, without any extra happiness that I wouldn't have already had. I was pretty happy before I got saved.
Don't mean to sound patronising, but are you counting all the bad things, or is it just that now you tend to worry less about them, so you count less ?
I find that, when I'm feeling bad (for whatever reason) little misfortunes tend to stick in my mind for longer than when I'm feeling good. For example, if x bad things happen to me on a 'bad' day, I'll remember them for weeks to come. If x bad things happen to me on a 'good' day, a week later I've forgotten half of them. It's kind of a confirmation bias, I suppose.
I do not worry about the bad things as much, thats for sure, but that is separate, from things that actually happen bad to me. I see the difference.
No, perfecty explainable: You admit that before you were saved you were feeling and looking worse and had bad habits (drink, pot, etc.) All these were reflected on your looks and attitude. It's no surprise the previous churches didn't want you in the band. Once your appearance and attitude improved, it was much easier for a church to have you in the band.
It happened on my second visit to the church, and I was in the process of being saved, and still drinking and smoking. So thats not the cause.
God clearly called me to that church (another story) and when I got there, I later found out that they had been praying for a keyboard player. So they just laughed when I told them I was a keyboard player. I was confused because they had such confidence that I was the one they were praying for, when they hadn't even heard me play. How could they know?
They even asked me to perform before hearing me play.
You would probably say that adds to the chance, but I say it adds to the coincidence.
Many people do that in their own mind. It's called self-suggestion. I know you think this is unique to you, but so does everybody else who are convinced they experience something 'special'.
I do not think it is unique to me.
Why are you putting yourself down? We all have been inspired at some stage. It's just that now you attribute some special force behind your inspirations.
I still get insirations, that are not from God, but from my mind. Then I use them to glorify God. that is separate than an inspirtion from God himself. You can have it too.
Listen, you obviously needed to turn your life around and you did that.
Thats just it. I didn't have to turn my life around, I was fine. I was a good person, making a living, treating my family well, Loving others. So I smoked pot less than once a month, thats about the only thing I changed really.
The things that I have recieved from getting closer to God, are not from me. I have even healed people with prayer. Which of course I realize extremely subjective, thats why I didn't mention it until now. But it was another coincidence, mmmmm.
You know what, its by faith that I found God. Now I know he exists, and its by faith that I believe he will do the things he promises.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Legend, posted 10-29-2004 11:13 AM Legend has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 235 of 304 (154139)
10-29-2004 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Dan Carroll
10-29-2004 11:43 AM


See, this just isn't true. In response to me saying how I help others, your exact words were, "I'm sorry to say this, but taking God out of the picture, and teaching others to feel the same way, to me is not really helping."
I meant this in respect to teaching others that God is not necessary at all. That is just as bad as me teaching you God is necessary.
Good is good, and God sees that, thats what I told you. Its what comes from your heart that counts. God knows why you aren't close to him.
And as individuals, they most certainly do not. Once again, how does a child born into a war zone have everything he/she needs to be happy?
Thick...
As individuals he/she is screwd, by.....man! And a nation.
As a race we are lacking too, but there is some help out there.
It is by no fault of the individuals that they are in this situation.
If God is everything you say it is, then it has the power to help these individuals. But it chooses not to do so. Meanwhile, God does choose to help you find the right place to pray.
Again... God's priorities, as far as who he's willing to help, and with what, are utterly fucked.
But its not God's responsobility to save them. Its ours. I can't help it if God blessed me by letting me be born here. What I could do is ackowledge that, and then reach to help others.
How do I do that, by asking God where to pray, and have him tell me what to do, what his purpose for me is. We all have different callings. I should not try to do something that I haven't been called for. How would I know this unless I go and pray.
Just like people in poor nations who pray to God and ask him why they are the way they are. I'd be willing to bet that the answer from God is, you are the way you are because man put you there. Now go and fight in my name to bring about righteousness. Do they fight, or do the coward away? Or do they join with the evil forces.
I can't possibly know whats going on over there, unless I go there and see it first hand. Sitting here on an internet forum and crying about it, porbably doesn't help them either, but you do it.
I think our points have been made. You just don't see the relevance, and want to blame God for everything.
You look at like priorities, how could you possibly know his priorities?
If you were able to do a million things at the same time, wouldn't the quicker tasks get done before the longer tasks? Maybe the quicker tasks are needed to complete the longer tasks.
It's up to us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 11:43 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 12:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 236 of 304 (154140)
10-29-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by mike the wiz
10-29-2004 11:42 AM


How Amazing
Mike says,
quote:
Indeed, it takes no mathematical ability to acknowledge an amazing coincidence
Sure it does. That's exactly what I'm saying, that people who can't determine probability attribute significance to events far beyond what they deserve. If there's a group of two dozen people, what's the chance that two of them will share a birthday? After all, there are 365 days in a year, so the probability of a group of people that number much less than 10% of that having two people with the same birthday must be really small, right? Well, it turns out that the probability is around 50%, which means that given groups of two dozen people, you'd expect to find two people in each group with the same birthday half the time. So the fact that I share the same birthday with my boss isn't some amazing coincidence, given that there are about two dozen people in our department. Half the departments in the company should contain a pair who share the same birthday, if they each comprise two dozen people.
The cognitive filter that allows us to believe in answered prayers acts this way: if I ask for a sign and don't receive it, even multiple times, I don't attribute as much significance to any or all of those instances as I do to the one instance when I think I receive a sign. It's commonly known as the Jeane Dixon effect, since people who read those moronic newspaper horoscopes only remember the rare times when they notice a correlation between the horoscope and things that happen in their lives. They filter out all the days when the horoscope doesn't seem at all meaningful.
Believers claim all the time to have received signs, and the instance they describe can seem significant. However, we're never told all the times they haven't received signs, because the believer assumes the Magic 8-ball was merely telling them "Ask again later." I live near Boston, so guess how many people have told me "I said in May this was the year for the Red Sox" in the past two days. They're right, of course, but they've said the same thing every May. How impressive is that?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by mike the wiz, posted 10-29-2004 11:42 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by mike the wiz, posted 10-29-2004 12:56 PM MrHambre has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 304 (154148)
10-29-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 12:27 PM


I meant this in respect to teaching others that God is not necessary at all. That is just as bad as me teaching you God is necessary.
Again, it would sure be a nightmare if people just did the right thing because it was the right thing, without God being involved at all.
As individuals he/she is screwd, by.....man! And a nation.
Yes, and I don't recall ever saying otherwise. I've said that God has the power to help them and can't be bothered, not that God is directly responsible for their woes.
But its not God's responsobility to save them.
It must be nice to have that much power, and no responsibility whatsoever to use it to help others.
I can't possibly know whats going on over there, unless I go there and see it first hand.
Actually, you can read the news, and count the dying. You can't actually see the bullet cracking their skull and drilling into their brain, but you can still know it happened. Then you can make the wild assumption that people dying for no reason is bad.
I think our points have been made. You just don't see the relevance, and want to blame God for everything.
I love when people tell me what I want. It's such a treat.
You look at like priorities, how could you possibly know his priorities?
By looking at what he does and doesn't do. What he does do is clearly a higher priority.
Pretty simple, when you think about it.
If you were able to do a million things at the same time, wouldn't the quicker tasks get done before the longer tasks?
No. They would be done at the same time.
Maybe the quicker tasks are needed to complete the longer tasks.
So is God all-powerful or isn't he? If he is, then this is bunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 12:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 3:24 PM Dan Carroll has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 238 of 304 (154150)
10-29-2004 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by MrHambre
10-29-2004 12:29 PM


Re: How Amazing
MrHambre. I apreciate what you are saying - I wouldn't say I exactly disagree with it, but have you understood what I meant? I said;
" Well lets see - he's at the River - hence his name - the chances are that fish might be jumping - as that's where he is at - and his purpose is fishing. The chances of him seeing a big fish are good - it can not as a whole - prove much. "
If I admitt this isn't proving much - and you just say "it's a coincidence that he asked for a big fish and got one" - I'm not going to argue with you. Why? I consider prayers personal proof - read my other message to Coragyps in this thread concerning the matter.
since people who read those moronic newspaper horoscopes only remember the rare times when they notice a correlation between the horoscope and things that happen in their lives
Believe it or not - I agree, and those things annoy me. But the difference is that horoscopes are vague - I've seen how they are made - as to convince people they're true - for example; " You've suffered in the past but you will come in to good fortune " - and since that applies to about 80% of all people....well, you'll get what I mean. And so - these horoscopes are vague, - but prayers are specific. For example - if I need to be healed from cancer - healing me from a common cold won't be an answered prayer - I hope you can apreciate what I mean.
So - I admitt that I "notice" coincidences - but I also take part - it's great feeling praying for something then seeing it happen - and you are the one in charge of the terms.
Sorry if I was crankier a bit earlier - many people are attacking Riverrat and it upset me a little.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by MrHambre, posted 10-29-2004 12:29 PM MrHambre has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 239 of 304 (154157)
10-29-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 9:56 AM


The Process
I'm glad you decided to open up.
Did you follow a process to be saved?
Most churches I have belonged to put people through classes or counseling/talks with a preacher or layperson. You may have also started the process on your own.
During this process is when people usually shed those "layers of crap" you mentioned in Message 36.
As we shed those "layers of crap" (psychological baggage) our countenance does noticeably change, as well as, health.
quote:
Have you ever noticed yourself the difference when you look into a Christians eyes? I'm not talking about people who confess to be a Christian, and are really not.
These are the people who have gone through the motions of Christianity, but have not rid themselves of the baggage. They may or may not be able to.
Enjoy the journey.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 9:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 3:46 PM purpledawn has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 240 of 304 (154179)
10-29-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Dan Carroll
10-29-2004 12:54 PM


By looking at what he does and doesn't do. What he does do is clearly a higher priority.
Pretty simple, when you think about it.
Simply amazing that you don't get it.
Does and doesn't is present tense thinking.
You fail to look at what he has done, doing, and going to do.
No. They would be done at the same time.
Maybe they are for him.
Go ahead, solve E=MC^2 and 2+2 in the same amount of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 12:54 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-29-2004 3:42 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 259 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2004 9:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

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