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Author Topic:   Directly Observed Mutation
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Message 1 of 50 (153916)
10-28-2004 10:36 PM

Good evening.
I'd like to pose a question from which I do not have complete knowledge of - here it goes.
Are there observed empirical instances of mutation and NS giving rise to novel features?
Let me clarify a bit further - I'm aware of certain instances that we can infer a mutated event occurring, such as that Nylon Bug famous case. However, are there actual experiments in which a new, novel feature has been created, and researchers were able to directly pry open the gene sequence and directly notice that, in fact, there was a mutation and NS that was the direct cause of such a novel feature? IOW, are there any instances that do not have to necessarily infer that a mutated event gave rise to NS, but that we have directly observed the gene sequence itself and can conclude without a doubt it was mutation?
My abilities to scan any research are a bit limited (as is my knowledge), so any actual citations would be terrific.
Thanks for any replies.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2004 12:04 AM markoo has replied
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 10-29-2004 12:11 AM markoo has not replied
 Message 5 by Coragyps, posted 10-29-2004 12:12 AM markoo has not replied
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 10-29-2004 4:04 AM markoo has replied

Inactive Member

Message 7 of 50 (154113)
10-29-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
10-29-2004 12:04 AM

Hypothetical situation - we observe that a bacillus population declines precipitously in response to a disadvantageous environment (or a new predator), but then rebounds. We know that a change must have happened, or else the original population would have survived. We know the change must be heritable, or else the new members of the population would have had it.
The only conclusion is that a mutation occured.
I wholeheartedly agree with your scenario, but let me give you my hypothetical situation (okay, it's not hypothetical at all really). A person I am discussing this issue with simply does not believe a mutation is the answer without verifiable, empirical evidence that the DNA (or in some cases, I suppose RNA) has been altered. I personally believe it's off the wall, but I think this person's reasoning is that if a mutation cannot actually be seen, there could be another possibility occurring - ID, or more specifically, perhaps divine intervention or something. Hence my desire to actually see (and demonstrate) DNA samples before and after a mutated event occurred, giving rise to a novel feature.
But, yes. It's fairly often, in bacteria at least, that we can sequence the genetics before and after the mutation, and see what locus mutated, and in what way.
That's what I'm after, so I'd be grateful of some more examples from you or anyone else. And to those who have posted examples already, thank you very much!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2004 12:04 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2004 12:06 PM markoo has replied

Inactive Member

Message 8 of 50 (154114)
10-29-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mammuthus
10-29-2004 4:04 AM

Do you mean observed in nature or do experiments in the lab count? If lab experiments count then the list of references will grow to include..well my lab notebook for one
By all means, I don't want to exclude any personal research at all! Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 10-29-2004 4:04 AM Mammuthus has replied

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 Message 10 by Mammuthus, posted 10-29-2004 12:07 PM markoo has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 11 of 50 (154137)
10-29-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
10-29-2004 12:06 PM

And anyway, even if he saw the mutation happen (assuming we had techniques that could peer inside the genetics of a cell without destroying it), whats to say that it isn't still "divine intervention"? How does he know what divine intervention looks like?
Playing devil's advocate for a second, I'll assume he'll probably discuss Dembski's EF. Putting the myriad of problems of the EF aside for the moment, I'm guessing this is what he'll likely have to fall back on, or perhaps at worst state that we can't rule out other possibilities (which really befuddle me). I really don't know why he has such incredulity on this most basic concept, nevertheless I wanted to make sure I cover all my bases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2004 12:06 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RustyShackelford, posted 10-30-2004 2:27 AM markoo has not replied

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