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Author Topic:   A question that was first presented by Socrates (Part 2)
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 11 (153564)
10-28-2004 2:47 AM


MONOTHEISM and Dualism
RiverRat writes:
If we are monothiests, then explain this verse:
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":
2 "How long will you [1] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
This is a continuation of the thread by Socrates...I will answer this in the morning...I'm tired. Shut er down, Jar.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-28-2004 01:44 AM
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-28-2004 01:48 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by riVeRraT, posted 10-28-2004 10:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 11 (153578)
10-28-2004 4:11 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 3 of 11 (153644)
10-28-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-28-2004 2:47 AM


Re: MONOTHEISM and Dualism
I think you need to also include why I posted that verse.
I believe we were talking about monothiestic vs pantheistic views.
you wrote:
To a monotheist, we can commune with God, but our thoughts are never His thoughts and our ways are never His ways. Even Jesus said that there is none good but God. Jesus was not just in communion with God, Jesus WAS God. He said to the rich young ruler, "why do you call me good? There is none good but God." In that statement, He neither denied being God nor being good, but He was basically asking the man this question: Do you know who I am?
Then I showed you that verse that explains we are all gods.
Jesus even refers to this verse, or the Law if you will:
John 10
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[5] ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
I am not trying to disagree with you, just looking for some clarification.
*edit* that notation in John 10:34 refers back to Plasms 82:6
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-28-2004 09:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-28-2004 2:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 4 of 11 (154170)
10-29-2004 2:58 PM


God's evil acts are good (for dpardo)
(A decent post to see where this discussion is coming from is this post from the first Socrates thread.)
Pink: You see God, and all of his actions, as "good". I see God as defining "good", and disagree with Him on certain points.
Pardo: That's why I think it would be productive to discuss these points.
Do you have any specific event in mind when you bring up the issues of genocide or infanticide?
No. No specific instances. I think this is the third or fourth time you've asked me, and I've answered you as many times.
I'll ask one last time, and if I don't get an answer as opposed to you responding with another question, I can't see the point in continuing this discussion.
Is genocide ever morally justifiable?
Is infanticide ever morally justifiable?

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 5 of 11 (154174)
10-29-2004 3:06 PM


God's mistake (for dpardo)
Pink: In other words, though you say God 'regretted' the creation of mankind, you see the regret as mankind's mistake rather than God's. I see it as God's mistake, since He is clearly regretting mankind's creation, which was an action of God and not man, (though admittedly He is also regretting mankind's choices). I think my stance is more logical.
Pardo: Do you think God made a mistake in creating you or allowing you to be born?
It doesn't matter what I think on this point - the discussion is on whether or not God thought that He made a mistake creating man, not on what men themselves think. I'm guessing that every human on the planet during the Flood thought that God was making a mistake - does that make it so?
You've stated that God "regretted making man", but say the regret was in the mistake made by man. That doesn't make sense.
God regretted "making man".
Man did not make man.
The only entity that "made man" is God.
Therefore God regretted His own action.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 3:42 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 11 (154181)
10-29-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by pink sasquatch
10-29-2004 3:06 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
Hi Pink Sasquatch,
You wrote:
You've stated that God "regretted making man", but say the regret was in the mistake made by man. That doesn't make sense.
God regretted "making man".
Man did not make man.
The only entity that "made man" is God.
Therefore God regretted His own action.
It does make sense.
God made man and it was good.
God gave man free will.
Some men chose to follow God's way and some chose to do evil.
God executes justice on the wicked and preserves the lone man (and his family) that "walked with God".
God regretted making the men that chose to do evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-29-2004 3:06 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-29-2004 4:38 PM dpardo has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 7 of 11 (154200)
10-29-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by dpardo
10-29-2004 3:42 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
I've already covered the concept that God saying man "was good" in Genesis 1 in no way negates the fact that God acknowledged His mistake in Genesis 6.
God regretted making the men that chose to do evil.
Exactly. God didn't regret creating the men for the act of creating themselves.
Regardless of God's reason for the regret, He regretted creating them.
The creation was God's act.
God regretted His own act.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 3:42 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 4:55 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 11 (154204)
10-29-2004 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by pink sasquatch
10-29-2004 4:38 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
Pink Sasquatch writes:
The creation was God's act.
God regretted His own act.
We are in agreement here.
The bible actually concurs with us:
Genesis 6:7-8:
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-29-2004 4:38 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-29-2004 5:54 PM dpardo has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 9 of 11 (154228)
10-29-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by dpardo
10-29-2004 4:55 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
So if we (and the Bible) are in agreement that "God regretted His own act", I guess it comes down to whether or not you think that an entity regretting its own act is equivalent to thinking/admitting that they made a mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 4:55 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 6:19 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 11 (154234)
10-29-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pink sasquatch
10-29-2004 5:54 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
Pink Sasquatch writes:
So if we (and the Bible) are in agreement that "God regretted His own act", I guess it comes down to whether or not you think that an entity regretting its own act is equivalent to thinking/admitting that they made a mistake.
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-29-2004 5:54 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 10-30-2004 3:05 AM dpardo has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 11 of 11 (154363)
10-30-2004 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by dpardo
10-29-2004 6:19 PM


Re: God's mistake (for dpardo)
dpardo responds to pink sasquatch:
quote:
quote:
So if we (and the Bible) are in agreement that "God regretted His own act", I guess it comes down to whether or not you think that an entity regretting its own act is equivalent to thinking/admitting that they made a mistake.
Yes.
So you are saying things are good because they are good, not because god does them. That there is a moral authority that even god needs to answer to.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dpardo, posted 10-29-2004 6:19 PM dpardo has not replied

  
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