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Author Topic:   Atheistic preacher?
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 7 of 53 (154593)
10-31-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
10-31-2004 9:21 AM


Hi there. I've just read back over this post, and it comes out like a bit of a rant. I'm usually quite sanguine; I don't quite know why its come out like this. That said, it was quite fun to do. Anyway. I'm interested in your response, if you feel like making one.
Athiests have no message of hope to preach. Since the grave is the end to them, I don't understand why they spend their relatively few moments of existence trying to convince others that they should join their group.
Well, I dunno... Its quality not quantity, isn't it? Even if it meant that the amount of time that I expected to be conscious for was finite, I'd rather have a view of reality that makes sense to me and seems logically okay, than one that promised infinite existence and didn't seem to make much sense.
And though you make the argument from a Christian perspective, it could be used by a lot of people of other faiths. Why do Muslims want to convert people? So that they can have a nice eternal life. Why do Jehovah's Witnesses? Same reason. They have wonderful messages of hope to preach. Its perfectly nice of them, but that's not the point. Is it right? If its not, then its a total waste of everyone's time.
If consciousness lasts forever then it is an infinitely less precious thing than something that only last for a lifetime. If existence is something that can be snuffed out at almost the same instant that it is kindled, why should we get involved in spurious religious systems in order to place our lives in a broader context? If there isn't a supernatural realm of any kind, the time and effort expended on worshiping might be better spent trying to help yer fellow lifeforms. And anyway, how can we make an informed decision about the religious scheme that we should adopt? There are so many, and they all promise so much, with no evidence as to which is the correct one.
Some, in their hopelessness end their own lives prematurely when life becomes tough or unpleasant.
Atheists commit suicide because they don't believe in God? Perhaps this is true, I don't know, I've never commited suicide. Are you saying that no Christian has ever commited suicide? Or no TRUE Christian? The insinuation here is that atheists aren't really there when the going gets tough (slackers, all of them). This kind of characterisation just seems to be the product of a massive failure of the theistic imagination. If there isn't an afterlife, and we only have this lifetime to make any kind of impact, then this might act as a spur to get on with things. It does for me, anyway.
And though there aren't that many witch trials now, there has been the rather distressing tendency in times past for Christians to end the lives of others prematurely, when their lives become tough or unpleasant. That's not very nice.
They consider themselves to be accountable to no higher power, so there is no motivation for and no reason for them to consider morality to be of any significant consequence. They seem to consider the pleasures of the here and now to be the important thing in life and focus on the me and mine as the pre-eminent drive in life as to how one lives and relates to others. After all, what reason would there be to think and act otherwise if the grave is the end?
This argument actually gets me annoyed, every time that I see it; maybe that's why theists use it. It just seems to demonstrate a tremendous failure of empathy, or observation. Do you really see atheists running around the streets, raping and pillaging themselves happy?
"Oh God, its those damned atheists again, masterbating in the streets and stealing wallets." Call me crazy, but I think atheists are bound by social codes as much as anyone else. Wanking on street corners provokes stares from most people, regardless of their religious persuasion.
Israel and Palestine are filled with theists who do horrible things. Even Christians occasionally murder people. According to you this couldn't happen. Or maybe TRUE Christians don't murder.
Furthermore, it scares me that the idea of God is all that stops theists from doing a Columbine, excuse my French.
Many hate any who would preach any other gospel than theirs, especially a gospel which preaches accountability for the way one lives to be reckoned with in existence beyond the grave.
Pretty much by definition, atheists don't believe in accountability AFTER the grave. They believe in it BEFORE. That will do, won't it? And as for intolerance of others beliefs, isn't that something that pretty much anyone is in danger of expressing: atheist, Christian or Hindu?
Feel free to mention that Pol Pot was an atheist. This may well cause my entire worldview to shimmer and collapse, like a mirage in a desert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2004 9:21 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2004 10:20 PM Tusko has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 48 of 53 (155145)
11-02-2004 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing
10-30-2004 1:40 PM


Sorry I didn't address your actual question in my post. I just went off on one at Buz without thinking. Apologies.
I don't think any attempt on my part to "convert" you would be very successful; my ability to persuasively argue is limited. I'm not even totally sure that Allah, Jehovah, or Zeus aren't the real deal anyway. All I can do is talk on a personal level, and tell you the things that make me tend to question the likelyhood of the existence of a god or gods. You will have heard them all before, and if they weren't persuasive before, I doubt they will be now.
1) The agony and suffering of innocents caused by natural disasters, disease (infectious or congenital), or abuse makes me question the effectiveness or existence of a supernatural protector. I've heard several explanations for this. Some, like "God is in some way enriching or otherwise improving these people's lives through the back door by giving their baby Cystic Fibrosis" seem wholly inadequate. I don't really understand the others. This problem for me also extends to the suffering of animals, which appears to me to be just as real and distressing as the suffering of other people. It seems to me to be unjust of a caring and benevolent god to allow this.
2) More generally, I don't think that ideas of sinfulness and evil that are shared by many religions are at all useful in understanding the world. The fact that abusers are often the victims of abuse makes it hard for me to view evil behaviour as a choice unclouded by circumstances. Sure there are some people who have been abused that don't abuse; but I don't think that makes the idea of evil totally unproblematic.
3) There is a huge variety of religious doctrines that people around the world follow sincerely and with hope for a better life. There were a huge variety of religious doctrines that people around the world followed sincerely and with hope for a better life before Mohammed, Jesus and Moses. It seems unjust that someone might be condemned to eternal agony and suffering by accident of where and when they were born.
4) Putting aside that they are used to justify the existence of several mutually exclusive deities, I don't find any of the classic arguments posited for the existence of "God" (cosmological, teleological, and the others I can't think of) convincing. (Added by edit:- I think stuff like those arguments, and the claims about the uniqueness of the Koran or Bible, and all that kind of stuff is only there to impress those who already believe.
I can't think of any more right now. I guess they are the main ones. I assume they don't cause you any trouble.
This message has been edited by Tusko, 11-02-2004 06:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 10-30-2004 1:40 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-02-2004 8:15 PM Tusko has not replied

  
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