The power of prayer: in action

Rirverrat, will you please cut n paste the portions of the messages you are responding to into your responses? It is annoying to have to go back and forth to and from the old message to read what you have just responded to.

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The comment was more or less to point out, that it is not what the people want but what the evil leaders want.

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Do you think that all of the males in patriarchical theocracies don't want to keep all of the power and privilage that comes with being male?The US wasn't even a theocracy but women's rights sufferagettes were spit on, jailed, vilified in the press, had lit cigars thrown on them, and generaly reviled by the men who didn't want to give up any power.

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I was talking about today, and its true.

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I am talking about today as well as the past. The Southern Baptists and Mormons treat women as second class citizens.

So, do you agree that humans can and do lie to themselves all the time?

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Why the heck is it us atheists never see any of this stuff? I am so glad I live in this world and not the one inside your head.

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Let's not forget that Buzsaw believes demons are whispering to him, and Hangdawg believes that demons can posess people.Didn't I read the other day about a woman in Texas who bashed her two children's skulls in with a rock because God told her to? Oh, and there was another woman in a strict Christian church/cult who starved her infant to death to make her preacher/God happy?You really never hear about Athiests or Agnostics doing these kinds of things, do you?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-29-2004 09:01 AM

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I can't say that I ever lied to myself. I have rationalized things into a state of accepting it as something I cannot change, just to keep my head from blowing up, but the truth remains.

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"Rationalization" is one of the many ways to lie to oneself.Here's an example:Joe's boss just fired him. Joe came in to work late every day for a week and his boss has the records to show that it's true.Joe says, "My boss is such a jerk. Sure, I came in late every once in a while, but so do other people. I know the real reason he fired me; I was so good that he was afraid I would take his job!"Here is a typical rationalization. Joe is clearly deceiving himself in order to soothe his ego and to resist admitting that he screwed up.Here is a real life example from my own experiences:I once worked for a crazy woman. Her expectations were unrealistic, and even though I had a degree in the field and years of experience, (she did not have either), she was a control freak to a truly ridiculous level. I put in my notice, and when she asked me why I was leaving, I was honest with her. I told her that she hired me to "manage" but it was she who really wanted to control every little thing in the workplace. I told her that her expectations of the job were unrealistic, that the pay was far lower than similar jobs in the area, she didn't respect my time off, and that she gave me a bait and switch WRT the hours I was to work. I also told her that I was possibly interested in doing some teaching and I couldn't do that from there.A few days later, she had convinced herself that I had actually said that the main reason I was leaving was because I wanted to go off and teach.I was astounded. We had gone to breakfast and had a meeting where I outlined, on paper, my issues with her, the job, and how what she expected for the money she paid was completely unreasonable.She had turned it around completely in her mind, dismissed all of the negative things, and simply decided to believe that I was leaving for a completely different reason than I had stated.This woman was otherwise pretty normal and functioning to the rest of the world (maybe not her family, but you know what I mean).She was also completely deluding herself. It was easy for her.Much easier than taking a hard look in the mirror.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-29-2004 09:32 AM

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Yes, I completely agree with you. That was such a good story.

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Thanks. Sad but true.

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I run into people like that all the time. But I ask myself, who are these people fooling.

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THEMSELVES.That's the point.They are happier believing a lie than accepting the truth.

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they want things to go their way so much that they just block out what you are saying as you say it, that they never hear it.

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Bingo.

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When you come to Christ, you tend to get rid of those traits and go in the opposite direction, and care about what people have to say, listen to them, become sensitive to their needs, and think before saying something that might hurt them.

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But we are not talking about meeting people's emotional needs.We are taliking about perception of reality.

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Have you ever convinced yourself of a lie?

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Sure, many times.Everybody has.I do let in evidence contrary to what I want to believe, however, so I have probably mostly corrected myself.

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There will be times in your life, however, where logic and science will be unable to comfort you.

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Of course. That's what my loved ones are for, and I for them.

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What is the fascination with spirituality by otherwise unspiritual people?

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I am interested in logic and reason, and how religious people marry the illogic of religion and faith with the need to be logical and rational in day to day life.

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Are they fascinated by the bizarre reasoning and belief paradigms within believers?

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Pretty much.

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Did it ever occur to them that a world without a Deity ultimately deifies self?

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Nah. I have never thought that way.

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Human potential! You need not worship a "sky daddy" when you yourself shall someday become one!

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We are just really, really intelligent adaptive apes. Not dieties. Special withing the Animal kingdom, yes, but not dieties.

Thanks for quoting in your reply! It's MUCH easier.

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Even if it is all good? If it was bad, I would be afraid.

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How do you know it's all good?If you believe it is from God, it is, by definition, all "good", right?

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My question, is why is it that someone like you who is as smart as you, cannot see that it is not from God?

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Which God/gods?

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I think there is way too much influence over a statistic like that, and you would never know the truth from that.

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There is no influence. What could it be?The rates of good, bad, and indifferent things happening to people are exactly the same if you are a believer or if you are not.

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It wasn't fake.

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How do you know?

duplicateThis message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-01-2004 09:41 AM