Supernatural vs. Scientifically Unproven

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Originally posted by Big B:
I was just wondering what people's views on this were. Is supernatural a possible synonym for scientifically unproven? People have said that bigfoot, UFO's and the like are supernatural, but so were giant squids and the northern lights before science proved their existence was real. In the case of squids there wasn't a lot of physical evidence (at least no more than there is for bigfoot or UFO's) until recently. So, is it really acceptable to flat out reject something based on it being 'supernatural'? I say this, because it seems as though there is some close-mindedness out of the materialist camp. Since things like souls or God can't be proven by science (yet) then the possibility is rejected. This seems like the similar arguement that is frequently used against Christians (or any other religion for that matter). Basically everything is molded around a preconceived set of values for how the world operates. In the case of Christians people try to mold science around the Flood, etc. and in the case of materialist there can be no such thing as OBE's, NDE's, or ESP. So, does supernaturalism have to be reduced as phenoma that is 'miraculous' or can it simply be in defiance of certain principles we currently know about physics?

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I don't think that 'unproven' means 'doesn't exist' I just want evidence for is said to exist.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
Is supernatural a possible synonym for scientifically unproven?

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Sometimes.

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So, is it really acceptable to flat out reject something based on it being 'supernatural'?

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I don't think anyone really does. What people like me ask is that claims of the supernatural be proven.

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Since things like souls or God can't be proven by science (yet) then the possibility is rejected.

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No, the possibility is not allowed into the logic. This is not the same thing. Once some one comes up with data, then the supernatural can be used. This is the point. The supernatural == no data.

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So, does supernaturalism have to be reduced as phenoma that is 'miraculous' or can it simply be in defiance of certain principles we currently know about physics?

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I am perfectly ok with this, but you can't use 'it might one day be proven' in an argument formulated before that day comes.

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does the supernatural exist.. yes it does..is it unseen.. no it is not when it is allowed to be seen...and unseen when it is to work in its own spiritual relm.

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Defining does not make it so.Skipping a bunch of sermon-y stuff.

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Who are you going to believe..man or the creator himself

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Show me a creator and I'll believe him, but I hope he's a her.

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but again sitting before us is documented proof that firey charriots ascending into the heavens..

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hmmm.....More sermon-y stuff.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
so john you hope god is a woman...lol..i just cant believe you read the bible 4 times and once in hebrew!

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Strange but true, though admittedly, my Hebrew is poor. [quote]because if you did read the bible,,you would have read the passage where Jesus refers to God as : My Father..now if your mind is in working order...the word father is of the male side of the sexes.[/b][/quote]You just don't get it. Until you or someone else can show me why I should believe Biblical mythology over another mythology, I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!

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Common john admitt you just love to respond in a snied way... causeing more attention to your wittless remarks...

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I respond with precisely the seriousness required and always in dead ernest.

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you will never understand what is being said because i precieve that your mind is one sided in the thought process.

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You have only to provide evidence for your position. Telling me to 'open my mind and just believe' doesn't stand to any kind of reason at all. This is the same line used by countless charlatans throughout history.

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If i were you...i would take a very serious look at your spirit..

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You have no idea how much looking I have done. And I am getting very irritated with assumptions about my person. [quote][b]i do believe i will go to another post, some where there is a place were i can get a solid and adult type of reasoning conversation...[/quote][/b]Read your own replies to me. All I see is you telling me that I am wrong and you are right. I need to open my mind and just believe. This is hardly adult reasoning.

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without the bland clickity clack sound off the railroad track response from people who have no clue to anything in life not even their own thinking...

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What arrogance to assume to know my thoughts! Basically I disagree and you have no rational response.

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bug off...smarty.

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Ah yes, that is what you meant by adult! Now I understand.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
I mean i just wanted to let someone else see what i believe..not to get picked apart

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Did you happen to notice that this is a discussion forum?

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THAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS A HISTORICAL RECORD, THAT IT SHOWS PROOF TO A BELIEVER

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I'm not. Where is the proof for the rest of us?

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IM JUST SAYING THAT I BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS..BECAUSE IT ANSWERS MY FEARS...IT CLARIFYS WHAT I CANT SEE...SO I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE WHAT IT READS..

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I can answer your fears too, just give me a list. L Ron Hubbard can do the same, so can Confusius, and Buddhism, and Islam, and Shaolin, and etc. Why do you not believe them?

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I just feel it is a shame that adults today cant grasp the historical record the bible is..when a small child can accept it more easily with out any debate to its meaning..

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Ever notice that you can convince a child af pretty much anything? This is why we have age of consent laws and such like. Your argument is ridiculous.

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I JUST THINK IT IS UNBELIEVEABLE ADULTS HAVE TO NIT PIC THE WORDS THAT COME FROM THE TRUE GOD HIMSELF..

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Nope, pick apart a book of fairy tales perhaps....

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AND FLATLY REJECTING THE OLDEST DOCUMENT

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Patently not true. The Rig Vedas are older. So are the mythos of Babylon, Sumeria and Egypt actually.

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THAT TELLS US WHAT HAPPENED IN THE BEGINNING

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Which tale is pretty much the same as the tales told by the Sumerians, Egyptians, Babylonians....

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AS OPPOSED TO A MERE MAN WHO BURRIES A PIGS SKULL ALONG WITH A HUMAN REMAINS AND SAYS HE FOUND THE FIRST HOMOERECTUS..

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Better than a god who buried an extensive fossil record to trick us wouldn't you say?

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AND THAT DARWIN BEFORE HE DIED CLAIMED IN HIS LAST WORDS...THAT THERE MUST BE A GOD WHO CREATED.

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Again, patently not true. Darwins daughter debunked this lie. The lady Hope, wife of James Hope, claimed to have heard these last words. She wasn't there!!!!! Doesn't it bother you to pass along lies and fabrication as truth?

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hack apart my post, and have fun..

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'k

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i just am waiting for someone to reply with an adult view to what i have written...

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Doesn't this mean that you can't wait for someone to agree with you? This is a very childish attitude. I, personally, can't wait for someone to disagree with me. I learn more that way. But you aren't here to try to learn anything. You've made that clear.

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But go ahead and call me names and tell me i need to start reading hebrew just because you have.. well im happy you can read hebrew...that is your choice not mine...i have heard that the hebrew language is more detailed and has more true meaning than the king james verson of the bible...happy happy happy...

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And a LOT easier than English. Give it a try. How can you know the history of the KJB and still read it? Oh wait, I bet you don't know the history of the KJB!

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im not going to get pissed off because im less educated than others...i know i am, and i dont intend to go to college..or for that matter care how i spell...

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Ah yes... all I need to know I learned in kindergarden. How adult is that, really?

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to me that is not at all important for me...CAN I JUST SHARE ..sheesh.

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Why should you have the luxury? I am being severely criticised for my part of the sharing.

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id like to hear some detail as to what you believe on the main topic i was trying to relate to..evolution/creation using the bible as a documented proof of creation.

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Though I doubt you really want to hear my opinions.....You cannot use the Bible as documented proof of anything until you can verify the source. You have not done so. And as far as I can tell, you haven't tried. Tautologies don't count. Faith doesn't count either, because faith can 'prove' anything. And does.

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john do you have ANY BELIEFS?

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Of course, all of them tentative and dependent upon evidence.

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then share them with me

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Basically, I am a very radical empiricists though not precisely a naturalist.

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john...dont get personal . .i havent been.

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Like hell you haven't!!!------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[Fix UBB quoting. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 08-15-2002]

For those who care.... [QUOTE]Originally posted by allen:
[B]john
some people make me laugh but you make me laugh hysterically until l i start crying and i can no longer take your stupidity anymore because you have shown yourself the true rear end of a donkey and i am sickened by your lack of real intelegence you profusely spew from your fingers words of empty reasoning and i really dont care to continue this whatever it is of a conversation in this forum so please let me depart from your blind eyes and numming conversation you spew out at me i no longer care what the hell you think or say or do ow whatever you are and i could give you a quarter to call someone who cares but in your case you would debate your way to the laundrymat instead of the phone booth and loose the quarter along the way, i have no feeling for you and your dumb thinking, you would reject a helping hand if it was offered to you while you hang on a ledge screeming for help,i hope this post causes you to realiz this is how i see your preveous posts to me, all run togeter but in a line, all close but no winner, truth is what one sees as a honest quest finalized after searching ALL aspects of ones hunt. you should stop looking so far away for the truth as it is sitting in front of you if you are holding the bible. did you not know dear friend that the scales of hell cover your eyes, and that all you need to do is have simple faith, and did't you read in the bible not to learn of or listen to o the rreligions least you fall in them? John you cannot convince me one iota..that you read and applied the word of the only one living God. please don't even throw evil names at me of other gods, because i dont worship them and never will, in you case you dont even have a god, you are too busy escaping the one thing you know in you heart that you need to come to Jesus. Don't tell me different. If i hurt your kindergarden feelings i appoligise for that, i know a good mind is not a thing to waste. Stop waisting your mind for your own sake. Your answers to my post are actually quite good. I hope you do well in your quest in finding Jesus. Oops sorry, because if you do research all the other gods in this world, you will find the best one to be Jesus.
i will read your responce to this post, but i will not respond to it because i dont want to keep casting my pearls in the wrong direction. Remember if you sow your seed on rock and gravel it will not grow, if you sow your seed on fertal land it will grow and produce good fruit. Which one do you want to be, the seed on the rock or the seed on the fertile land. All the proof i have for you is in the bible, so read it again john, stop being hardheaded, your spiritual future, and your ever lasting spiritual life depends on the choice you make.Buddah or Jesus.[b][/QUOTE]Still waiting for that adult reply aren't you?I think you make a great case for christianity. Lets run through it shall we?you make me laugh hystericallyyour stupiditythe true rear end of a donkeyyour lack of real intelegenceempty reasoningyour blind eyes and numming conversationdebate your way to the laundrymat instead of the phone booth and loose the quarter along the wayyour dumb thinkingreject a helping hand if it was offered to you while you hang on a ledge screeming for helpthe scales of hell cover your eyesyou cannot convince me one iotayour kindergarden feelingsStop waisting your mindYour answers to my post are actually quite good. --- whoa, where did that come from?casting my pearls in the wrong directionstop being hardheaded*******So.... You mean if I read the Bible I can have all of this too!!!???The name calling? The myopia? The utter refusal to even reply to any specific objections made?WOW. I believe in one fell swoop you trumped even Jet.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
..so my DEAR FRIEND,(whom i now admire)..because i sincerely have begun to like your style..lol..you are a pure pleasure to write to. and i mean that with all my kindergarden learning..lol.
You have taught me one thing John...never step in with the bull,if you want to leave the arena with all your parts still intact!.

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No offense but... fickle aren't you?

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well..i will give you my email address, and i hope we can become real friends,as i have totally enjoyed your putting me streight.

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Why not just answer the questions I have posed?Enjoyed? Do you mean laughing yourself silly at my stupidity?

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I have never come across any other
preacher or establishment that could prove word by word anything,
any question etc. that i could throw to them..

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Why not just answer the questioned I have posed to you?

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I personally appoligise for any hurt that i caused you, and here is my email..as i wish to have you as a friend. You are a fine person to know, and again i am sorry i posted the rude and mean things ..as i was totally out of my league with you. But i now offer my friendship..(which is rare). So be honored lol.

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Frankly, you couldn't bully or ridicule your way with me so now you are resorting to flattery and appeal to my warm-cuddlies. I am not impressed.

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Octokat1@cox.net
P.s. maybe you can teach me a few things..(hand shake!).

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Why not just answer the questions I have posed?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
first i am not a christian..second,i have no religion,,third..i have faith
in a god who took my place on the cross and paid for my sins so i do not
have to go to hell when i die..fourth, to receive salvation, one must have
faith that the size of a mustard seed.. a small seed..dont take much faith
to believe in what jesus did for me... as for your link.. why christains
convert to islam.. should read: why fools choose a false god over Jesus..
because the twisted words you line up to reflect a general rule as to why
christains convert to islam.. islam is a religion..a man made way of adding
pieces of scripture that make him feel things happened in his own picking
the truth he believes is the way he should or wants to worship a god that
is false...or is placed above the true only living god. So i do not choose
mans religion. i choose to believe in a single god who created all things,
and offers a bridge back to himself by the simple act of taking my place on
the cross...and paying for the sin of man in order that we may once again
walk with him in everlasting glory. I do not spend my time and effort trying
to puzzel toghether other things i do not believe to prove that man is
right.. i believe what god has done is right..remember.. Jesus is
alive..death could not hold him.. he went into the depths of hell to take
the keys of hell and overcome death itself. did your god do this in islam
religion..because death is the result of sin..and untill man comes to the
forgiving power of jesus, he will end up in hell for eternity because of
sin.. adam and eve brought sin into the world by choice..simply by
disobeying the command of God himself not to eat of the fruit of the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil..but they did, i personally do not believe
this was an actual fruit, i believe it was saying that they should not take
into their mind or lives the act to know about good and evil ways...remember
there was no sin before this act. But once they chose to break the command
not to take of the knowledge of good and evil, then sin was born in man..and
the wages of sin is death of the flesh, and death of the spirit..bound for
hell...hell being the eternal punishment to the spirit.
That is wha t i believe . Nothing any man will ever convert me to islam or
any religion that has a name...i do not claim religion.. i claim faith in a
living god....i dont recall any name in the bible that says if you have
faith in Jesus you are a particular religion now.. remember man did
that..ie.. christian/catholic/islam/jewish/buddist/

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So are you going to actually reply to anything I've said, or just repeat yourself ad infinitum?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
...hey i cut n pasted that...lol

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wow. [quote]first i have to find out what infinitum means[quote] Its Latin.

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and then try to remember what it is that you wrote

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I can remind you.

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and maybe i may not answer it because i was trying to get y ou to email me and get off this silly forum so we can communicate in a more rashinal way...

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I like this forum. There are many bright people here who will not let me get away with poor reasoning or premises.What is preventing a rational discussion? Let's see.... how 'bout your refusal to engage in such a discussion?

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but you wont, so untill you email me...

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Oh damn!!!! I defy you will. What am I thinking?

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i refuse to answer you any more...

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That's adult.

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you have my email..

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Funny thing is, you have mine as well.

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as someone else has emailed me and is helping me out on this eternal delema...a truely kind person they are...

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Happy to hear it.

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they are takeing the time to explain to me what i cannot find as truth

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As I would be happy to do, but it is difficult to discuss things when one gets pages of ridicule instead of honest responses.

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and you are just using this forum to show your cool way of yappen...

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Wrong again. I have told you why I like this forum.

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so please email me..

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Why? Are you somehow more mature when composing email?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Very entertained Mammuthus

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Yes, I live to entertain I think my favorite line was "First, I have to find out what ad infinitum means" How hard is it to find a dictionary? Ought to be able to guess that one anyway.Or maybe, "I'm just sharing.... geez!!!"I also found it quite amusing that Allen kept waiting for an 'adult' response.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Hi John
Except at the end where he strangely kept trying to get you to engage him off the forum through email (are his arguments somehow compelling in private?)

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Good question. I kinda felt like getting me off-forum was the whole point-- like I was being set up for a spam attack or something. Of course, he browsed my web-site but missed the direct link to my email. Not very observant that boy.

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For a reference see the movie In Laws with Allan Arkin and Peter Falk where they meet a strange dictator that has a face painted on one of his hands that acts as his advisor and friend

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I was thinking Megadeth--- "Hello, me... it's nice talking to myself, a credit to dementia..."

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You have a lot more patience than I would have had

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I was bored. With TB not arguing as vehemently as he once did, and with TC mostly gone, and wmscott, and our arch rival Conspirator (of course) there just hasn't been much to bite into lately.------------------
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