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Author Topic:   Gnostic timeline reversed?
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 82 (155718)
11-04-2004 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brad
10-23-2004 5:21 PM


Re: uh...
Well, since many Gnostic texts refer to paul as being gnostic
And many people claim Abe Lincoln was gay........doesn't mean it's true.
We know Paul adhered to the theology he wrote in the epistles......which is purely Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brad, posted 10-23-2004 5:21 PM Brad has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 82 (155720)
11-04-2004 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Kapyong
10-23-2004 8:07 PM


Re: Paul the Gnostic
There is no hard evidence that the 12 apostles even existed.
I've seen no hard evidence that YOU exist, but it's kinda silly to make accusations like that without any reason, isn't there?
Paul was revered as "THE Apostle" by the Gnostics themselves -
See my Abe Lincoln analogy.
Paul describes a journey to the 3rd heaven where he personally learned divine secrets - the very definition of a gnostic.
Paul describes a layered universe - just like the Gnostics.
Paul describes multiple bodies - just like the Gnostics.
Paul contrasts evil matter with spirit - just like the Gnostics.
And all such concepts (except the first, which you're exaggerating) are also Christian.......this proves Gnosticism predates Christianity how?
Paul makes no clear mention of a historical Jesus or his ministry, nor do the epistles - merely spiritual references to a Risen Christ.
I flipped open my Bible to the epistles right quick, and I didn't have to go past the first chapter of the very first epistle to disprove this claim.......Romans 1:3 reads "...His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed ot David according to the FLESH."
There is NO MENTION in ANY Christian writing of the bulk of Jesus' ministry until a century or so after the alleged events -
This is simply untrue, as two of the gospels was written by disciples who surely did not live until 100 ad..........

This message is a reply to:
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RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 82 (155722)
11-04-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Kapyong
10-26-2004 8:53 PM


Re: P52 etc.
Pardon?
There are many large differences found amongst these documents. In fact - NO TWO Gospel manuscripts have exactly the same text (excepting tiny scraps).
And not one theological point held in the canon is challenged in any of these.........not ONE.

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RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 82 (155724)
11-04-2004 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by 1.61803
10-27-2004 5:29 PM


Re: Who wrote first????
I read that Mark wrote about Jesus as a prophet of God
Which actually reading Mark will teach you different........
and by the time John is written Jesus is fully deified as God incarnate.
Even though John is clearly not based on the other three gospels......so, that kinda destroys your theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by 1.61803, posted 10-27-2004 5:29 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by 1.61803, posted 11-04-2004 6:04 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 65 of 82 (156027)
11-04-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 3:11 AM


Re: Who wrote first????
Mark wrote of Jesus as a mortal. No amount of redaction and theological calastintics will change that. The Arians who believed that Jesus was not one with the father 'different substance' lost out to the church in Rome. Hence all the Trinity aristotilian metaphysical hocus pocus was developed to explain 3 things that are one thing. There is no nativity account, or virgin birth story in Mark period. Matthew and Luke who wrote after Mark added those accounts to further diefy Jesus. But this is not my point, I was simply asking Bob which was written first. I always heard Mark was written before Matt and Luke. But since you piped in perhaps you could tell me if Mark was written in the 70's or not.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 3:11 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:09 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 82 (156477)
11-05-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by 1.61803
11-04-2004 6:04 PM


Re: Who wrote first????
Mark wrote of Jesus as a mortal. No amount of redaction and theological calastintics will change that.
You guys really need to stop swallowing the BS your philosophy professors feeds you whole.......once again, I flipped open my Bible to Mark, and, once again, I didn't have to get outside of the first chapter to prove this claim incorrect.......in fact, I didn't even have to get out of the first VERSE.......
Mark 1:1. "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
But this is not my point, I was simply asking Bob which was written first. I always heard Mark was written before Matt and Luke. But since you piped in perhaps you could tell me if Mark was written in the 70's or not.
I've heard Mark dated as early as 54 ad.......and most people accept the fact that it was the first gospel written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by 1.61803, posted 11-04-2004 6:04 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 67 of 82 (157105)
11-07-2004 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by RustyShackelford
11-05-2004 11:09 PM


Re: Who wrote first????
Hi Rusty, thanks for the info. And about that quote in Mark "son of God." That was a common phrase in the day. We would all be considered the sons of God. That does not mean we are God incarnate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:09 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by RisenLord, posted 11-12-2004 3:42 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
RisenLord 
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 82 (158621)
11-12-2004 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by 1.61803
11-07-2004 11:49 PM


Re: Who wrote first????
I don't recall the term "Son of God" ever being used in the Bible except in reference to Jesus, angels or Adam.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by 1.61803, posted 11-07-2004 11:49 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Selah
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 82 (183639)
02-07-2005 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brad
10-21-2004 3:58 AM


Re: whaaaaaa?
Hi Brad,
Just letting you know that I find all this stuff interesting about whether Jesus really existed back then. I believe Gnosticism predates Christianity. It blows you away to think of this big hoax. I also think their is a link between the epistles, gnostic texts and the dead sea scrolls, am just investigating it all right now.
Sandra

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 Message 12 by Brad, posted 10-21-2004 3:58 AM Brad has not replied

  
Selah
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 82 (183641)
02-07-2005 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brad
10-21-2004 3:58 AM


Re: whaaaaaa?
Hi Brad,
Just letting you know that I find all this stuff interesting about whether Jesus really existed back then. I believe Gnosticism predates Christianity. It blows you away to think of this big hoax. I also think their is a link between the epistles, gnostic texts and the dead sea scrolls, am just investigating it all right now.
Sandra

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 Message 12 by Brad, posted 10-21-2004 3:58 AM Brad has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 71 of 82 (183653)
02-07-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by SirPimpsalot
10-21-2004 8:24 AM


Well, the people considered Church Fathers might have been considered church fathers because they were on the winning side???
Information on the gospel of Thomas show the range of dates it might have been written between 50 and 140.. a very large range IMO.
The Gospel of Thomas

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 72 of 82 (183679)
02-07-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by RisenLord
11-12-2004 3:42 AM


Re: Who wrote first????
David was called 'the son of god'. Check out Psalm 2, where David was begotten by god when he became king.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Selah, posted 02-07-2005 6:37 PM ramoss has replied

  
Selah
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 82 (183802)
02-07-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ramoss
02-07-2005 10:24 AM


Re: Myth
I started investigating the NT scriptures years ago when I became dubious about the authencity of them. There is mega amounts of writing in it to believe that the messiah will be living in the last days when the mystery of christianity is revealed. Hebrews 1:1
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son", Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by sacrifice of himself and Peter 1:20 He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times for your sake etc.
I don't believe the original authors got the timing mixed up and thought they were living in the last days as there are references in the OT as to it being in the last days also, ie Micah 4:1
It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills; and many people shall flow to it and Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like the son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
I believe that most of the NT was originally written as a prophesy for the last days to be fulfilled (as Revelations is). I think the authorities of the past have tampered with the scriptures to include miracles, the virgin birth (as mainstream christianity has it)etc etc, to make it out to be a past event. I believe the mystery of it all is just that and as it says in Daniel 12:9
He said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. and Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase and Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith — to the only wise God be glory for ever more through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Would anyone else like to comment on this?
Sandra

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ramoss, posted 02-07-2005 10:24 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 74 of 82 (183907)
02-08-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Selah
02-07-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Myth
There seems to be a big gap about what the traditional Jewish thinking of what prophecy is verses the chrisitian view of prophecy. The traditional view of Judaism is that a prophet was 'called by god' to lead the nation of Israel back to the path of God when they strayed. It does not involved foretelling, but rather pointing out what the consequences would be if they did not go back to god. This was a "conditional" foretelling, much along the lines of your mother telling you that you will get burnt if you touch the stove.
It seems to me the concept of 'predictions of the future' came about when the expected return within their lifetimes of Jesus did not occur. They had to explain that lack somehow, and came up with the concept of things happening at the end of time,and a day for god is 1000 years. It was an excuse for saying why their original expectations were not met.

This message is a reply to:
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Brad
Member (Idle past 4787 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 75 of 82 (184341)
02-10-2005 3:50 AM


12 desciples
Can anyone even name the twelve desciples? Come to a consensus as to who they were? I don't think anyone can, because who they were isn't nearly as important as carrying on the pagan tradition of the zodiac. The number was far more important then the who. If this is the case, then there is very little reason to believe they existed. I'm not asking for a "everyone knows who they are" or a few names, I want all twelve, because I have been searching, and can't find it.
On a side note, I thought this thread died, if there's still more interest, awesome...let's keep going. A lot of my info comes from Timothy Freke, anyone know anything about his credibility? Thanks,
Brad

Replies to this message:
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