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Author Topic:   Water As An Element of Fine-Tuning
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 61 of 100 (156592)
11-06-2004 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
11-06-2004 7:39 AM


Re: Jason Chin Remix
Thanks for the clue in. I do remember pimpsalot.

On a side note, I belatedly saw your post on why God is Good. It was nice though I thought one thing might have been inaccurate. In one way it shoots down what you were saying about humans, but at the same time it helps with your self-healing concept.

You said only humans heal others, including other animals, but from what I understand that actually is not true.

I wish I had some cites but I don't. From a couple of news items I have seen and/or read, it is being discovered that some dogs can sense cancer cells and when they do, they try and chew them off of their masters. In testing this, some doctors found they were also relatively good at spotting illnesses in people and focus on those with internal problems.

And it isn't just man's best friend. It is also being reported that dolphins appear able to spot internal disorders in humans using their sonar and when they do they use the sonar to try and help them. For example breaking up cell or crystalline growths using concentrated sound waves. That was a very cool documentary to watch.

I guess dolphins have been known to help humans for some time in many other regards as well, protecting sailors from drowning and sharks.

And it isn't just mammals. Reefs act as great cleaning and maintenaince "pitstops" for fish. I don't know if you've ever seen it on film but it is pretty funny to watch.

Some ants are also caretakers of other species. They have other bugs which they tend and "milk" like we do cows.

In the end I think this all indicates a natural symbiosis. Humans may have a broader capacity to employ tools for diagnosis and treatment, but many interact in beneficial ways.

How is this on topic? Uhmmmmm... This would all involve fine-tuning of nature to be benevolent in symbiosis, and dolphins and reefs are underwater.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 8:00 AM Silent H has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 62 of 100 (156594)
11-06-2004 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Silent H
11-06-2004 7:52 AM


Re: Jason Chin Remix
You're right, it is a stretch to keep that on topic here but I'd be happy to expand on your input in the other thread.

I'm aware of many such examples and touched briefly on them in that way too long epistle, but I think to really include such examples it becomes hard to meet the four way criteria of scope, intent, extent and empathy.

Come on over and we can discuss it further there.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2004 7:52 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2004 12:02 PM jar has not yet responded

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 1169 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 63 of 100 (156620)
11-06-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by CK
11-06-2004 5:54 AM


Re: Jason Chin Remix
Thanks for the info, my head was getting a little sore butting into brick walls and the goalposts were moving at warp speed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by CK, posted 11-06-2004 5:54 AM CK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:32 PM tsig has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 64 of 100 (156623)
11-06-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
11-01-2004 3:52 PM


you mean ...

.

.

.

... you can't sink the bismuth?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 3:52 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 65 of 100 (156625)
11-06-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:18 PM


maybe too late but ...
RustyShackelford writes:

but if water is the only concievable solvent, regardless of varying physical laws, which could expand when frozen, then I'd have to say that the existance of water is one of the stronger arguments for fine-tuning.

This assumes that life requires a liquid that freezes and thaws. Not necessarily so.

And what does it "fine tune" that is of note? It would operate in that manner in every place in the universe where there was water. Therefore the whole universe would be "tuned" and all you are saying is that "what is" looks like it is what it is because it is.

But then most anthropic arguments are like that.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:18 PM RustyShackelford has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:37 PM RAZD has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 66 of 100 (156639)
11-06-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
11-06-2004 8:00 AM


Re: Jason Chin Remix
Come on over and we can discuss it further there.

Well that thread's not a big thing to me. I just thought I'd mention that little bit of input since we were talking. I don't know if it really adds to the debate over there anyway, but thought it might have been of interest to you in a general way.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 8:00 AM jar has not yet responded

    
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 67 of 100 (156785)
11-06-2004 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
11-06-2004 1:46 AM


Oh, I get it. You think the theory of relativity constitutes all laws of physics.

Nope......but defying relativity is proof that many if not all of the laws of physics don't apply to quanta.


"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought

"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed

Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 1:46 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 7:26 PM RustyShackelford has responded

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 68 of 100 (156789)
11-06-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Silent H
11-06-2004 7:36 AM


You had more than just my word, you had my examples.

But I don't know if your examples are accurate......I need more info.

Also, though I realize the oceans might not freeze entirely, they would become too frozen to support marine life........

Unless you want me to collect signatures to back this up

I want to hear experts who agree with you.

Perhaps you would care to list their explanations of how bottom-up freezing would create the results they are claiming we would see in the world.

I don't know. I heard Lam admit it early on in this thread, I've been told this by a friend of mine who's a chemistry major and I read it in a school book once........I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I need more than just your word since I already HAVE the word of three other sources.


"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought

"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed

Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2004 7:36 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2004 7:08 PM RustyShackelford has responded

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 69 of 100 (156790)
11-06-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by tsig
11-06-2004 10:50 AM


Re: Jason Chin Remix
Thanks for the info, my head was getting a little sore butting into brick walls and the goalposts were moving at warp speed.

I'm not taking sarcasm from a person who's never even heard any multiverse theory or the potential for the variablity of the laws of physics or anything else pertaining to fine-tuning........


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 10:50 AM tsig has not yet responded

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 70 of 100 (156793)
11-06-2004 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
11-06-2004 11:23 AM


Re: maybe too late but ...
This assumes that life requires a liquid that freezes and thaws. Not necessarily so.

Ummmmm, I do believe every liquid in existance freezes at a certain temperature.........

But then most anthropic arguments are like that.

Most arguments against it consist of appealing to the insanely improbable, like ammonia life.


"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought

"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed

Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 11-06-2004 11:23 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 11-06-2004 9:25 PM RustyShackelford has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 71 of 100 (156814)
11-06-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 6:28 PM


But I don't know if your examples are accurate......I need more info.

You have got to be kidding me.

Also, though I realize the oceans might not freeze entirely, they would become too frozen to support marine life........

What on earth does this even mean? In the tropics? At vents? There wouldn't be any freezing at all much less "too frozen to support marine life."

I heard Lam admit it early on in this thread

If Lam "admitted" this perhaps he can explain why my examples are wrong. You have also had at least one other person on here say the same thing as me. Why does Lam take precedence?

I've been told this by a friend of mine who's a chemistry major

Oh yeah, so what? I have a chemistry and Geology background that extends into graduate work. My examples were pretty common sense and involved facts which are pretty indisputable. What did this friend have as examples that applied to the real world?

I read it in a school book once

Name it so I can send the publisher's a correction notice.

I need more than just your word

You have more than just my word, you have my examples based on facts you should be pretty clear on.

How does water freeze? Does salt prevent water freezing? In the tropics is there any amount of freezing to suggest that freezing could affect life at all? How do you suggest water will freeze at thermal vents on ocean floors where temps are in the high hundreds of degrees? Can water freeze at several hundreds of degrees?

Are you honestly telling me you cannot answer the above yourself?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:28 PM RustyShackelford has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 7:13 PM Silent H has responded

    
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 72 of 100 (156817)
11-06-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Silent H
11-06-2004 7:08 PM


You have also had at least one other person on here say the same thing as me. Why does Lam take precedence?

Who? And Lam takes precedence because he's one of three seperate sources.......

Look, I'm clueless when it comes to chemistry, so I have no idea how accurate your examples are......I'm gonna have to ask for one of those appeals to authority that Crash hates so much.


"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought

"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed

Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2004 7:08 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2004 6:24 AM RustyShackelford has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 100 (156824)
11-06-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 6:21 PM


Nope......but defying relativity is proof that many if not all of the laws of physics don't apply to quanta.

That's idiotic. I see that it's even worse than I suspected - you can't tell the difference between the laws of physics and our models of them.

The model is not the reality, Jason.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:21 PM RustyShackelford has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 7:41 PM crashfrog has responded

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 74 of 100 (156833)
11-06-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by crashfrog
11-06-2004 7:26 PM


What the hell are you babbling about? It's simple fact that many of the laws of physics don't apply to quanta. They communicate at faster than light speeds, they are at any given time a wave or a particle, they are not influenced in any way by gravity.......


"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought

"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed

Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 7:26 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 7:43 PM RustyShackelford has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 100 (156835)
11-06-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 7:41 PM


It's simple fact that many of the laws of physics don't apply to quanta.

Oh, certainly our models of relativity don't describe quantum behavior.

But to take that fact and proclaim that quanta don't obey the laws of physics is simply idiotic. You've confused the laws of physics with our understanding of them. You've confused the map with the territory.

And now that I point this out, you're so embarrased that you accuse me of "babbling." Typical. Either that, or you're simply unable to understand the distinction between the model and the reality. Your loss.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 7:41 PM RustyShackelford has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 8:03 PM crashfrog has responded

  
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