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Author Topic:   Can science support creationism?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 95 (156460)
11-05-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
11-05-2004 10:03 PM


On the other hand the tendency of NS is to work against random mutation, producing a weaker or often even dead product when something different is produced by the process.
Well, yeah. The vast majority of mutations have neutral or negative effects.
But some do have positive effects, and natural selection ensures that these come to dominate the population.
Natural selection is a destructive force, and random mutation is a destructive force. The amazing part about biology is that when you combine them, you get a force that has a creative effect on population - evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2004 10:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 95 (156699)
11-06-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NosyNed
11-05-2004 9:30 PM


Re: Wrong Buz
This statement is incomplete. In that way it is wrong.
Ok, I'll clarify by completing the statement. Btw, I assumed you understood my statement to apply to our open system to which I was addressing, but I'll agree that I should have so stated.
True or false? In a closed system such as our's, according to 2ltd, entropy tends to increase.
True or false? My hypothesis DID NOT state or imply that nothing can go counter to the tendency of entropy to increase in our universe.
Edited to change "open" to "closed" in my first question.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-06-2004 05:26 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 4:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 95 (156710)
11-06-2004 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 4:05 PM


Re: Wrong Buz
Ok, I'll clarify by completing the statement. Btw, I assumed you understood my statement to apply to our open system to which I was addressing, but I'll agree that I should have so stated.
True or false? In an open system such as our's, according to 2ltd, entropy tends to increase.
True or false? My hypothesis DID NOT state or imply that nothing can go counter to the tendency of entropy to increase in our universe.
False.
The 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics has nothing to do with an open system nor does it make any statements about open systems.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 95 (156730)
11-06-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
11-06-2004 4:47 PM


You're right, Jar
You're right. I forgot that our universe is indeed a closed system. I'll edit my question accordingly.

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 Message 48 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 11-06-2004 5:33 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 11-06-2004 5:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 52 by NosyNed, posted 11-06-2004 5:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 95 (156738)
11-06-2004 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 5:25 PM


Re: You're right, Jar
Actually, the part about open and closed was right. We live in an open system. There is energy created by the sun. So when it comes to Evolution and life, the 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics simply doesn't play. It is completely irrelevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 51 of 95 (156745)
11-06-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 5:25 PM


Closed systems
If you are now refering to the universe as a whole as the system under examination there is a further complication that you need to understand.
In a closed system the total entropy can not decrease.
Therefore in a closed universe there can still be local decreases in entropy if there is a corresponding, greater increase in entropy somewhere else. Thus the solar system as a whole could be taken to approximate a closed system. However, that still allows for life on Earth to reverese the increase in entropy because that local decrease is handled by the greater increase in the sun.
Buz, the 2nd law argument has been used by creation sources for decades. They have had time to learn all this. To the extent that they continue to even mention it they are being dishonest. Don't be fooled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2004 5:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2004 5:53 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 52 of 95 (156746)
11-06-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 5:25 PM


Closed systems
If you are now refering to the universe as a whole as the system under examination there is a further complication that you need to understand.
In a closed system the total entropy can not decrease.
Therefore in a closed universe there can still be local decreases in entropy if there is a corresponding, greater increase in entropy somewhere else. Thus the solar system as a whole could be taken to approximate a closed system. However, that still allows for life on Earth to reverese the increase in entropy because that local decrease is handled by the greater increase in the sun.
Buz, the 2nd law argument has been used by creation sources for decades. They have had time to learn all this. To the extent that they continue to even mention it they are being dishonest. Don't be fooled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2004 5:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 95 (156749)
11-06-2004 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
11-06-2004 5:33 PM


Re: You're right, Jar
Actually, the part about open and closed was right. We live in an open system. There is energy created by the sun. So when it comes to Evolution and life, the 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics simply doesn't play. It is completely irrelevant.
Mmmm, my understanding is that since, except for some insignificant meteorites, nothing comes in but light and heat and nothing goes out but light and heat, planet earth is a closed system. Where'm I going wrong??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 54 of 95 (156754)
11-06-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 5:41 PM


Earth is very much open
Mmmm, my understanding is that since, except for some insignificant meteorites, nothing comes in but light and heat and nothing goes out but light and heat, planet earth is a closed system. Where'm I going wrong??
Uh, Buz, the "light and heat" coming in is exactly what makes the earth an open system. It is a significant quantity of energy in total. Almost all life on the planet depends in the fact that earth is open. In fact, it was a pretty big surprise to find some life that doesn't depend on that openness( thermal vents).
Remember we are talking about thermodynamics here. It is precisely the energy flow into the earth that we are talking about. If Earth was a closed system then it may well be that only the extremophiles at the ocean bottom would be here. Certainly all the life we know would not be. If earth was closed suddenly then almost all life would be dead in months. In years it is likely we all would be.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-06-2004 05:50 PM

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 95 (156757)
11-06-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NosyNed
11-06-2004 5:39 PM


Re: Closed systems
If you are now refering to the universe as a whole as the system under examination there is a further complication that you need to understand.
In a closed system the total entropy can not decrease.
Therefore in a closed universe there can still be local decreases in entropy if there is a corresponding, greater increase in entropy somewhere else. Thus the solar system as a whole could be taken to approximate a closed system. However, that still allows for life on Earth to reverese the increase in entropy because that local decrease is handled by the greater increase in the sun.
1. I am not disputing, nor have not disputed that local decreases don't occur. I have contended that the trend is, however for entropy to increase in the universe. I would also apply that to what I believe to be the closed system of our planet.
2. Correct me if mistaken, but earth does not accumulate a net gain of heat and light from outside it's closed system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 11-06-2004 5:39 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 56 of 95 (156762)
11-06-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
11-06-2004 5:53 PM


Heat Flow
2. Correct me if mistaken, but earth does not accumulate a net gain of heat and light from outside it's closed system.
On average, over time, this must be true. Or we'd get awfully hot or cold.
However, that also doesn't matter. What is happening is that energy is flowing through the system. That is free energy available for work. A small part of that is used by life on the planet.
You car's engine is similar. A lot of energy flows in, it all flows out. The engine, once up to temp, mantains a steady state. But it is the flow through that allows for work to be done. Work is a reversal of entropy increase.
Buz, didn't you say, when we started and asked me for my definition that you knew this? It becomes apparent that you didn't. In fact, you don't even have the simplest high school level understanding of the physics involved.
That is perfectly ok but it is disengenous of you to suggest otherwise when you started. It is preferrable to admit to what you don't know and ask questions. It is also preferrable to not throw little things in to support your ideas when you have no idea if they do support your ideas or not.
I hope we have put this to bed now.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-06-2004 05:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 57 of 95 (156763)
11-06-2004 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
11-03-2004 9:54 PM


Re: Explanation response.
Full circle back to my point. Your "other means" appear to be weaker than intelligent design for the complexity such as that observed in the human brain.
Buz,the content of your posts argue against the comlexity of the human mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 11-03-2004 9:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by AdminNosy, posted 11-06-2004 6:04 PM tsig has replied
 Message 59 by AdminJar, posted 11-06-2004 6:04 PM tsig has replied
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2004 6:26 PM tsig has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 58 of 95 (156769)
11-06-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by tsig
11-06-2004 6:00 PM


Uncalled for
You didn't need to waste screen and disk space with that post, Hawk --- behave!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 6:00 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 7:10 PM AdminNosy has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 95 (156770)
11-06-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by tsig
11-06-2004 6:00 PM


Not needed.
Does that post advance the discussion in any way? If not, it should be dropped.
edited to add yet another Mea Culpa. I figure I may as well open an account. LOL
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 11-06-2004 06:07 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 6:00 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 63 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 6:57 PM AdminJar has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 60 of 95 (156772)
11-06-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by AdminJar
11-06-2004 6:04 PM


Re: Not needed.
LOL, are we all quick on the draw today!
Do that in Admin mode though Jar

This message is a reply to:
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