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Author Topic:   Bush is back!
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 256 of 298 (156890)
11-06-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by berberry
11-06-2004 11:42 PM


People like paisano tend to be like this. If the minority is in their favor, they will start crying, "I'm being oppressed because they won't let me oppress others." If the majority is in their favor, they will say, "the people's have spoken, I have the right to oppress others."
It never occurred to them that some of us just want to be left alone.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by berberry, posted 11-06-2004 11:42 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by berberry, posted 11-06-2004 11:55 PM coffee_addict has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 257 of 298 (156894)
11-06-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by crashfrog
11-06-2004 11:19 PM


Turkey Shoot.
Turkey Shoot.
In the interest of creating bi-partisan good will after such a contentious election, John Kerry and his fellow veterans invite those republicans that had such fun with the purple heart band-aides to a turkey shoot for thanksgiving, all proceeds going to support veteran benefits and the veterans hospitals. Cost is a mere $5,000 per republican. Camouflage clothing to be provided along with a turkey target that they can wear on either an arm or a leg. Each participant will be allowed to leave the field once they have sustained wounds equal or greater to Kerry or any other veteran that got a purple heart in the Vietnam or subsequent wars.
Medical service will also be provided by the Veterans Hospital to ensure that they get the quality treatment that our veterans receive everyday. Body armor for vital parts will also be provided that is the same as was issued to the National Guard units before they were mobilized into active duty.
In the interest of resuming friendly relations we expect a large turnout. Just think, this is an opportunity for the Commander in Chief and the VP to finally get an inkling of an idea of what it is like in combat.
Pot luck dinner afterwards.
(that better?)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 11:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 298 (156895)
11-06-2004 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by coffee_addict
11-06-2004 11:46 PM


Lam writes:
quote:
If the minority is in their favor, they will start crying, "I'm being oppressed because they won't let me oppress others." If the majority is in their favor, they will say, "the people's have spoken, I have the right to oppress others."
They way he put it, it sounded a lot more like "my dad is bigger than your dad". At least that's how I suppose the children are making this argument it in today's kinder, gentler America. When I was a kid it went "my dad can beat up your dad."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by coffee_addict, posted 11-06-2004 11:46 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2004 12:12 AM berberry has not replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 259 of 298 (156898)
11-07-2004 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by berberry
11-06-2004 11:42 PM


What grade are you in, again?
Apparently a few higher than you are. I'm pointing out the political realities. Your side hasn't made its case, or you'd get more votes. Get to work making a better case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by berberry, posted 11-06-2004 11:42 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by berberry, posted 11-07-2004 12:19 AM paisano has replied
 Message 268 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2004 5:59 AM paisano has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 260 of 298 (156899)
11-07-2004 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by berberry
11-06-2004 11:55 PM


heh
old tom paxton song
My dog's bigger than your dog ... (click and page down)
I like the hair verse.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by berberry, posted 11-06-2004 11:55 PM berberry has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 298 (156900)
11-07-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by paisano
11-07-2004 12:11 AM


No, no, I think you've got it backwards. As I recall, it was you who said:
quote:
Like it or not, a solid majority of Americans see the gay lifestyle as voluntary, unnatural, and morally problematic.
Perhaps it was silly of me, but I thought I understood that you were in agreement with the idea that the gay "lifestyle" is voluntary, unnatural and morally problematic. As evidence for this claim, you cite the fact that your crowd is bigger than my crowd. That's not good enough.
To keep things simple for you, let's start with just one of your childish assertions: that homosexuality is voluntary. Precisely what is your evidence for this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by paisano, posted 11-07-2004 12:11 AM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by paisano, posted 11-07-2004 12:42 AM berberry has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 298 (156901)
11-07-2004 12:24 AM


Do we need to debate this yet again?
This thread is on Bush is back. I think that a discussion on what should be done to change the current public perception would be on topic but let's not get mired down in the Gay is Okay or Gay is Not Okay debate yet again.

How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by berberry, posted 11-07-2004 12:29 AM AdminJar has replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 298 (156902)
11-07-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by AdminJar
11-07-2004 12:24 AM


Re: Do we need to debate this yet again?
Do you mean that utterly stupid assertion such as "gay lifestyles are volutary, unnatural and morally problematic" are to be allowed to go unchallenged?
Dozens of issues are relevant to Bush's re-election. If they can't be discussed I don't know what the point of this thread is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by AdminJar, posted 11-07-2004 12:24 AM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by AdminJar, posted 11-07-2004 12:39 AM berberry has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 298 (156904)
11-07-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by berberry
11-07-2004 12:29 AM


Re: Do we need to debate this yet again?
Everytime such a discussion has come up it ends on the same note. One group says it immoral behaviour and the other tries to show it is not. But it never gets resolved.
Instead, perhaps if folk discussed how to change the current public perceptions, something might actually get changed.
So which do you folk want, yet another interminable debate with no resolution or to work towards a solution?
It's up to you folk, the members.

How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by berberry, posted 11-07-2004 12:29 AM berberry has not replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 265 of 298 (156905)
11-07-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by berberry
11-07-2004 12:19 AM


Read the quote again, several times if necessary. My personal views are irrelevant, and not being discussed.
11 out of 11 anti-gay marriage referenda passed by overwhelming margins. To dismiss the attitudes of the voters that voted in favor of these initiatives as "stupid" is beside the point. Clearly, you haven't made your case in sufficiently persuasive fashion to get such referenda defeated.
Refusing to engage an argument and just shouting "You're stupid" really is elementary school behavior.
I think I'm done with this board.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by berberry, posted 11-07-2004 12:19 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by berberry, posted 11-07-2004 12:58 AM paisano has not replied
 Message 267 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2004 5:40 AM paisano has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 298 (156910)
11-07-2004 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by paisano
11-07-2004 12:42 AM


paisano writes:
quote:
My personal views are irrelevant, and not being discussed.
Wrong on both counts. You told us what the majority of Americans think because you agree with the majority of Americans. If you didn't agree with them you'd have qualified your statement in some way. Therefore you were making an assertion.
quote:
11 out of 11 anti-gay marriage referenda passed by overwhelming margins.
Yes, you've made the point that most Americans agree with you. But you didn't really think that was an argument, did you? I suppose I could be wrong; perhaps you really do think it's important that your crowd is bigger than my crowd.
quote:
I think I'm done with this board.
Cheerio!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by paisano, posted 11-07-2004 12:42 AM paisano has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 267 of 298 (156920)
11-07-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by paisano
11-07-2004 12:42 AM


To dismiss the attitudes of the voters that voted in favor of these initiatives as "stupid" is beside the point.
Paisano, I have already been over this with you. You try to make this gay marriage thing into a reason that Dems were out of touch. It is so counterfactual as to be lying (especially since I have already addressed this with you).
The Democratic Presidential and VP candidates were clearly supporting the majority opinion on the gay marriage issue. They were against gay marriage. They stated this numerous times and in no uncertain language. During the VP debate Cheney and Edwards might as well have been nudging and winking to each other over their shared values.
I am uncertain why you feel it is proper to use this issue as an example of how the Dems did not get something right. And at this point I would like an explanation why feel you can keep saying this, or an admission that in fact you are wrong.
Remember I'm not arguing what it should be or not be, just what the majority opinion is and what the Dem candidates were behind... not to mention it was the exact same position as Cheney.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by paisano, posted 11-07-2004 12:42 AM paisano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2004 3:56 PM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 268 of 298 (156921)
11-07-2004 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by paisano
11-07-2004 12:11 AM


I'm pointing out the political realities. Your side hasn't made its case, or you'd get more votes. Get to work making a better case.
In order to make this statement you have avoided all the points of fact which have already been made against it.
This was a partisan and true believer victory. Traditional Reps chose their party over actual performance and policy (fantastic examples are McCain and Schwarz), while courting extremist elements on divisive social issues.
The Dems certainly could not make the case that they were the Republican party, and it would be bizarre for them to reach across to far right elements of the electorate. So to that extent they could never "make the case". They were doomed from the start since they stuck to the middle.
That does not change the fact that they proved the case that this economy (including Gov't surplus) and its military status has deteriorated under this presidency, and many Reps have directly criticized it in the exact same way (for example McCain).
It is a historical fact that majority populations can and have ignored pragmatic, proven arguments in order to support partisan or emotionally charged platforms. That did mean the Minority (which I will point out is not small in this case) was errant in making their case, it means the majority was errant in proper evaluation, or at the very least hypocritical by denying their stated principles. This is undeniably one of those cases.
We'll just have to see what the results are. I hope you are successful in fighting off the agendas that your party promised the far right. As an independent I am free to support the Reps that will do so. But I will always remember the open hypocrisy and partisanship necessary to support Bush.
While I agree with him on many principles, McCain to me is now as strongwilled a defender and believer of those principles as an organ grinder's monkey.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by paisano, posted 11-07-2004 12:11 AM paisano has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 269 of 298 (156929)
11-07-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by paisano
11-06-2004 6:40 PM


quote:
It's not the people. It's the lifestyle.
I don't understand.
What "lifestyle?"
quote:
Like it or not, a solid majority of Americans see the gay lifestyle as voluntary, unnatural, and morally problematic.
Like it or not, a solid majority of Americans see the interracial marriage lifestyle as voluntary, unnatural, and morally problematic.
quote:
On the other hand, a solid majority also don't care much what adults do in the privacy of their homes, as long as they are not asked to cheer it on or subsidize it.
Nobody's asking them the "cheer it on", any more than the racists were asked to "cheer on" school segregation or interracial marriage.
The male dominated society didn't "cheer on" women getting the right to vote, either.
These well-supported racist and sexist notions that denied citizens equal rights were rightly and justly rejected by those in office because it was the right thing to do.
quote:
Nor do they wish to deny anyone the right to work, live anywhere, keep and bear arms, etc. on the basis of such private adult conduct.
Then why is it still perfectly legal to fire someone on the basis of their sexuality? Or evict someone, or refuse to rent or sell a home to them because they are gay?
quote:
There is a distinction between tolerance and enthusiastic approval. Learn it.
But changing the state constitution to deny rights to its citizens doesn't sound like tolerance.
The Consitution is supposed to exist to protect and individual's rights from the "tyrrany of the majority".
Unfortunately, the homophobes and theocrats just put their own religiously-based discriminatory, freedom and rights-denying ammendments on the ballot so they could vote to keep the minority under it's majority heel.
Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave right about now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by paisano, posted 11-06-2004 6:40 PM paisano has not replied

DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 298 (156969)
11-07-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 10:56 PM


HOT OFF THE PRESSES!!!
crashfrog writes:
Yeah, our agenda of "leave people the fuck alone." I can really see how that would be so objectionable to arrogant moralist busybodies such as yourself.
**********************EVC News Flash**********************
Crashfrog gladly poses for the cameras as he proudly displays his favorite Kerry
campaign sign at a post election rally for the losers.
With that kind of enthusiasm for their country as a whole, it is difficult to fathom how the Democratic party actually lost the election.

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 10:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by crashfrog, posted 11-07-2004 3:04 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 293 by nator, posted 11-08-2004 9:05 AM DarkStar has not replied

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