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Author | Topic: Water As An Element of Fine-Tuning | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RustyShackelford  Inactive Member |
You've confused the laws of physics with our understanding of them. You've confused the map with the territory. No......no, I haven't. The Copenhagen (I.E. vast majority) interpretation is that we know all of quantum function that is knowable.......you of course weren't aware of this, because this plainly isn't your field. "Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought "I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene Creed Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The Copenhagen (I.E. vast majority) interpretation is that we know all of quantum function that is knowable Not according to my sources:
quote: I don't see anything like what you say the interpretation is. Feel free to cite your own source, please. Of course, there's every possibility that the Copenhagen Interpretation is outright wrong, according to recent experiments by Shahriar Afshar:
quote: mm, cookies. Out of curiosity, does this constitute evidence that Bohr was wrong for the other thread? Lessee...
quote: Why, I do believe it does. I must apologize; I was aware of this experiment the whole time, and I could have saved us all a great deal of time by bringing it up before, but I was having no success finding the literature on the experiment until I literally stumbled across it.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
ok, you pick the two easy ones to post opinions to, but dodge the middle one.
(1) obviously on a planet that does not freeze there is no problem. take mercury orbiting close to the sun with one side facing it and likely pools of molten metals. the fact that it is possible for such a system to exist means that freezing is no more of a problem than finding one example of a solar system that just happens to have close enough to good conditions for life to evolve. you have not refuted this point. (2) skipped (3) most arguments against the anthropic principle involve ammonia life? or most arguments against water? please be more precise in your responses: attempt clarity of thought, it helps. the skipped point was:
RAZD msg 65 writes: And what does it "fine tune" that is of note? It would operate in that manner in every place in the universe where there was water. Therefore the whole universe would be "tuned" and all you are saying is that "what is" looks like it is what it is because it is. The concept of "fine tuning" is to show that earth is special, but water on it's own does not do that: it exists throughout the universe and will be found in various forms on many planets in other star systems. And all the argument about water is that we know that in one instance life is based on water. This makes it highly likely that other life that exists is also based on water, but it does not require it to be so. You are using a data set of one (1) to make extrapolations for the whole universe, while also denigrating others for not considering alternate universes? Excuse me while I giggle. ROFGOL ... thanks I needed that. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5820 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Who?
Nic Tamzek. He pointed out the theoretical nature of your hypothesis and the sources of energy which would likely defeat it.
Lam takes precedence because he's one of three seperate sources....... Well I just took a look at Lam's post and if that is what you are counting on as a source for the opinion if water froze bottom-up all life would not exist, or even that all water would freeze, then it just casts a shadow over all your other claimed "sources". All Lam agreed to was that marine life in ice would not live, do to metabolism. I have already agreed with that as well. Most life does not do well in really cold temperatures, or to be more specific... ice. That is not the problem. Or should I say that only becomes a problem if it can be shown that all or most water is likely to freeze on earth due to a change in how water freezes. Well that simply is not the case. The biggest threat would be to freshwater marine life in temperate zones, or I suppose at high altitudes?
I'm clueless when it comes to chemistry, so I have no idea how accurate your examples are.. I'm not asking you to be a genius in chemistry or even an acolyte. I am asking you to simply remember facts about the world and apply them. The above playing dumb is like saying you aren't sure if a match will light a cigarette because you don't know about chemistry. If you want to have ice in the tropics, do you set a glass outside or in a refrigerator? If you have no idea what the tropics are like go online and check what the temperature ranges are. Set your fridge for that temp (if it can even get as high as tropical lows) and stick a glass of water in there. Let me know when it freezes. Put a pan of water on a stove turned all the way up. Will it boil away, or freeze over? The temps at thermal vents are more than likely higher than that of your stove. So will ice form or not? Take two glasses of water. Put a bunch of salt in one of them. Then put both in the freezer. Check regularly and note which freezes first. Solar and geothermal energy (combined with our atmosphere of course) prevent the possibility of water freezing over completely in large bands across the globe. That is simply a fact. If it wasn't we'd be frozen solid no matter water froze top down or not. You should be able to think this through. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Solar and geothermal energy (combined with our atmosphere of course) prevent the possibility of water freezing over completely in large bands across the globe. even during the ice ages there were parts of the oceans that were open water. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Tony650 Member (Idle past 4033 days) Posts: 450 From: Australia Joined: |
RAZD writes: even during the ice ages there were parts of the oceans that were open water. Seriously? I didn't know that. Do you know where? I have to catch up with this thread so I may be on the wrong track here, but are we talking about the region around the equator?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
you actually have some evidence down near you: corral heads that are older than the last ice age and where cores show a continuous annual growth pattern.
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Tony650 Member (Idle past 4033 days) Posts: 450 From: Australia Joined: |
Well, it does get extremely hot where I live. So there were actually large bodies of open ocean during the ice age. These were mostly in the equatorial region, I assume?
And marine life still flourished? What kind of temperatures are we talking about here? Were the oceans near freezing throughout or were there perhaps warm patches (deep sea vents, or something)? Imagine...all that coral out my back door and I never knew that about it.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
did a quick look for maps to show ...
this one doesn't show the ice coverage but you can see the area between australia and china is forested islands -- also the area of the GBReef.
here is one with the ice (estimated over water):
Main differences to previous ice ages would be the locations of the continents. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Tony650 Member (Idle past 4033 days) Posts: 450 From: Australia Joined: |
Hey, thanks for the maps, RAZD!
I'm a little lost, though. In the second map, am I to understand that all of the blue area was open sea during the ice age? And the bluish-white at the top and bottom represents the ice coverage? Is this correct? And here I was thinking that the ice ages turned the Earth into a big, spherical "icecube."
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
that is correct. no the "ice-cube" earth is an image of the neanderthals dressed in furs following the hairy mammoths (which ate the dry grasses of the high desert ecosystem).
it is an image that plays to our memories of winters, but the reality is a little more complex. remember these events lasted for thousands of years, so life survived in ice-free areas. the ice tied up a lot of "free moisture" available for percipitation so a lot of areas went to dessert conditions (first map) thus there was substantial change to the climate around the world but not all went to ice. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5820 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
a lot of areas went to dessert conditions Would that be the italian ice age, or the ice cream age? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5820 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
And here I was thinking that the ice ages turned the Earth into a big, spherical "icecube." I assume you are just joking, but for other indications we have vary long lived species that lasted through ice ages... including humans. Indeed if ice ages froze everything, I believe there wouldn't be any reptiles at all. A biologist could correct me on that one. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Tony650 Member (Idle past 4033 days) Posts: 450 From: Australia Joined: |
Well, it just goes to show how bad common misconceptions can be. Ice ages aren't exactly my forte, mind you (as if you couldn't tell ), but I thought that during an ice age, in essence, "the Earth froze." Well, I knew there was a little more to it than that but I never would have imagined there were open oceans and areas free of ice.
I suppose I really should have realized that. If the Earth's surface, in its entirety, were to freeze, is there any way that life could survive, in the long term?
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Tony650 Member (Idle past 4033 days) Posts: 450 From: Australia Joined: |
holmes writes: I assume you are just joking... Not really. As I said, ice ages are one topic that I've really never given a great deal of thought. As such, I'm sure I have many misconceptions about them. Don't get me wrong, I didn't think that the Earth literally "froze solid" all the way through, like a round ice cube out of the freezer. I'm not that naive. I figured there were probably active oceans under the ice, and of course all the usual geological and seismic activity, but as far as the Earth's surface goes, I thought the ice was pretty much everywhere. I was surprised, for example, to learn that there were oceans that weren't frozen over. In retrospect, I don't know how I thought life could survive an entirely frozen environment. If I'd given it more than a cursory thought I may have considered that, but I've never looked into it. Always learning something new on these forums I am.
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