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Author Topic:   Why allow Davison to lie?
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 1 of 28 (156154)
11-05-2004 9:06 AM


John A. Davison, under admin protection for some reason, continues to lie:

"Brad
The quote you cite was of course made by Scott Paige. Scott apparently takes exception with the title of the paper when he claims that the silencing of genes introduced near telomeres is not an example of position effect. That kind of reasoning is truly frightening. Wouldn't you agree? Is it possible you might respond with a simple yes or no? Let's see."

I said no such thing, and even clarified my position for the delusional and demented Davison. I explicitly explained that the effects occur near telomeres and that Davison was engaging in the iusual crank unwarranted extrapolation. Yet here yet again, he is allowed to "fling shit".

But, as I am banished from the Boot Camp forum, I cannot correct his lie/incompetence.

Perhaps the snooty mods can correct him?

Eh, Hambre? Mooseloch?

This message has been edited by SLPx, 11-05-2004 09:07 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-05-2004 9:52 AM derwood has responded
 Message 3 by Brad McFall, posted 11-05-2004 10:31 AM derwood has not yet responded

    
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 28 (156162)
11-05-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by derwood
11-05-2004 9:06 AM


The reason the two of you were seperated
has nothing to do with the informative parts of either of your posts, rather it was the continuing abuse the two of you heap on each other.

I find it amusing that you're bitching because we won't let you in the sandbox and John is bitching because we won't let him out yet.

Both of you need to change behaviour. You need to drop the habit of calling each other liars, stop swapping insults.

You both need to deal with the topics and not the personalities.

I feel like a kindergarten teacher sometimes, seperating two kids each yelling "He started it!" If the two of you don't straighten up I'm gonna make you sit next to a girl and you'll get girl cootties.


How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by derwood, posted 11-05-2004 9:06 AM derwood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Mammuthus, posted 11-05-2004 11:03 AM AdminJar has responded
 Message 6 by derwood, posted 11-08-2004 10:29 AM AdminJar has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3106 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 3 of 28 (156169)
11-05-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by derwood
11-05-2004 9:06 AM


I dont know if this helps if not please ignore, I mean no bad will.

There IS a difference between the effects of gene expression and the placement chromatin wise of the same. Because Davison had used the term "de-repression" I suspected that he developed some of his thoughts at the time Monod was developing his notion of "physiological time". That was why it took some time before we clearly communicated, as I,BSM, but perhaps not he, DO think that there might be PHYSICAL gene action-at-a-distance. Gladyshev describes something a bit narrowly restricted in this sense, when he talks about effects beyond mere contact with DNA, that reach across scales larger than the nano magnitude; but these are unproven :so: far as I know. I had not said that your thinking was "frightening" but I did judge that it is more about the genes themselves, whether silenced or not (through some kind of operon repression etc OR NOT), and NOT about the EFFECTS AFTER EXPRESSION of the same Heritability which in the cite *were* located near telemeres. I would agree with the admins that "protected" me in that thread and are doing some seperation here that evc can not let a sinlge word (that might be interpreted differently (effect vs effects)) to result) in name calling or admonishment, as was the apol0getic I might have wrote in a departmental setting that EVC is not a faculty of/in/aboard/about/aboveetc, being the NEW ONLINE MEDIUM that (it)isis a bit different when one is posting immediately at the time of one's pen pale or then say out of sync and out of geography with the same. You can note that John did not answer me directly as to my OWN interest to discuss single vs double strands but instead asked,,,, the ancillary absurdity (theater) which is not something prepositionally I am intended to reply or respond to materially.

http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/arts/writcent/hypergrammar/preposit.html

Also mooses observation expressed with

quote:
One of Brad's best?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Brad McFall
Forum: Boot Camp
Thread: A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis (from John A. Davison)
Post #: 3
This seems to be a rare instance of my not being able to follow Brad's reasonings purely because of my very weak biology background.

I look forward to JAD's responce to the above cited.

Moose

{Note: Adminnemooseus's formating tweaks of the cited were quite minor.}



were not directly addressed in the interchange between John and me, Scott, as it never came up if temporality AND utility (not the contradiction I offered as in the prior) were within the time actually.

This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 11-05-2004 10:45 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by derwood, posted 11-05-2004 9:06 AM derwood has not yet responded

    
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4548 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 4 of 28 (156178)
11-05-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
11-05-2004 9:52 AM


Re: The reason the two of you were seperated
I don't know. JAD is a particularly annoying individual. Having not posted this week almost at all, I have watched pink sasquatch, Wounded King, and mike hager all go through the same series of events. JAD makes his assertions, follows it with about 20 posts mentioning Leo Berg, Grasse and Schwindelhoff, says a couple of times how he is a persecuted heretic or a demented idiot (his own words or a paraphrasing of his self deprecation), and then threatens to leave. Whenever anyone asks him to elaborate, support his assertions, or even responds to his posts (except for Brad), JAD launches into a diatribe and then the series of posts repeats themselves. No matter how politely, neutrally, aggresively one approaches JAD, the same result is always observed. Go to the archives from a year ago when JAD posted as salty and you will see an almost identical clone of his Boot Camp threads...the only difference is that some of the evolution side memmbers are different. The only variation in JADs pattern are his
references to Scott Page. He does this often enough I have to wonder if JAD has a crush on the guy. Now he is into mis-representing what other people say and then arguing about their mis-representation. The guy is in a total mental rut. Boot camp is a nice place for him and only a slightly amusing place to visit for others.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-05-2004 9:52 AM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 28 (156179)
11-05-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mammuthus
11-05-2004 11:03 AM


And that is why JAD is there.
It is a matter of behaviours. In Bootcamp we WILL hold the regular posters to higher standards than the students. We will also try to shield and protect the students and to show by example how to debate effectively.

No one has to post in any of JADs threads. He will remain in Bootcamp until behavior changes. The other posters will also continue to be held to the higher standards when they post in Bootcamp.

The idea is to try to help the student change. It may not work, it may well fail, but at the least, it is the best effort we can make.


How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mammuthus, posted 11-05-2004 11:03 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 6 of 28 (157231)
11-08-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
11-05-2004 9:52 AM


are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
quote:
has nothing to do with the informative parts of either of your posts, rather it was the continuing abuse the two of you heap on each other.
I find it amusing that you're bitching because we won't let you in the sandbox and John is bitching because we won't let him out yet.

I'm not bitching about being let in the sandbox, I am complaining that JAD is lying about me and I have no recourse due to certain 'moderator' power trips.

quote:

Both of you need to change behaviour. You need to drop the habit of calling each other liars, stop swapping insults.



As I wrote in the sdandbox, and as Mam has pointed out here, it isn't just me. In fact, as I pointed out, I actually tried to adress his paper while everyone else was flailing about wondering how to make it accessible to everyone. What do I get? The usual form Salty. What does he get? Nothing.
Of course, there is a big difference between JAD and me - I actually try to support my claims (even when I charge Davison with lying, such as above) whereas Davison merely repeats them, as all cranks do.
quote:

You both need to deal with the topics and not the personalities.


I tried. I have also tried at the Fringe Sciences forum, but JAd is JAD no matter where you go.
quote:

I feel like a kindergarten teacher sometimes, seperating two kids each yelling "He started it!" If the two of you don't straighten up I'm gonna make you sit next to a girl and you'll get girl cootties.


I also feel like I am in kindergarten sometimes. The snooty rich kids think they are right about everything and think everyone should listen to them and do their bidding simply because they think they ar ein charge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-05-2004 9:52 AM AdminJar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 11-08-2004 11:12 AM derwood has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 7 of 28 (157256)
11-08-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by derwood
11-08-2004 10:29 AM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
I don't think I'll be able to respond effectively until someone tells me how one "explains things" to Terrell Owens, Dennis Rodman and John Rocker, but trying anyway...

The power that moderators have is balanced by a responsibility to the goals of EvC Forum: productive, constructive, evidence-based discussion. Using their personal judgment, moderators intervene when they see behavior that acts as an obstacle to these goals. Limbo is intended not so much as a place where one can continue debating with those restricted from the main forums, but more where you can help the residents develop the skills necessary to gaining a return of full privileges.

In this light, complaining that JAD is "doing it again" is redundant. Of course he's doing it again. That's why he's restricted to Limbo. The task (a hopeless one in his case, I'm afraid, but it can be fun to try) is to help JAD see the light so he can return to being (or begin being, actually) a constructive member of EvC Forum.

If, like me, you don't believe JAD is helpable, then stay out of his Limbo threads. If you believe his personal comments about you merit a response (you should be asking yourself why the ravings of a lunatic merit a response), then open a thread in Coffee House.

Keep in mind you're not alone in being abused by JAD. We moderators are apparently the reincarnation of Atilla the Hun, but we don't respond to these charges because we're pretty sure that anyone seeing them will consider the source, and ravings are fairly easily recognizable by most people anyway. In other words, excoriations from JAD shouldn't merit much if any attention.

I will add that the recent posts from Mammuthus and Pink Susquatch seem more oriented toward continuing the discussion than toward helping JAD "recover", but as long as they stay focused on the issues that is certainly acceptable. We haven't actually figured out how to make Limbo work yet. Responding to a Boot Camp inmate not with a response to their argument but instead with advice about how to improve their style is terrifically condescending, and more likely to cause upset than improvement, yet that's what we've asked. On the other hand, Boot Camp at least removes those incapable of constructive discussion from the main forums.

Summing up, even though I think most people confined to Boot Camp will be irremedial, I still think it, or something like it as we learn to use it better, will raise the quality in the main forums.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by derwood, posted 11-08-2004 10:29 AM derwood has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 11-08-2004 11:24 AM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 3:46 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4548 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 28 (157262)
11-08-2004 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
11-08-2004 11:12 AM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
Ironically, JAD managed by accident to stumble into the subject of Daphnia genetics which is itself really interesting though horrible complicated. JAD of course made no contribution to the discussion but perhaps the Boot Camp will be a source of future topics? Having seen pink sasquatch and mike hager both now fall victim to JADs dementia, I think he is a hopeless case and he pisses me off too much by ignoring my evidence without supplying any of his own. But if a new topic can be made out of the forum (maybe my next Contribution ) then it will have been worth it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 11-08-2004 11:12 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 4096 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 9 of 28 (157364)
11-08-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
11-08-2004 11:12 AM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
I will add that the recent posts from Mammuthus and Pink Susquatch seem more oriented toward continuing the discussion than toward helping JAD "recover", but as long as they stay focused on the issues that is certainly acceptable.

When I did try to make suggestions to JAD, and I think I did so in a polite manner, I was met with ideological lectures and personal insults.

By simply continuing the discussion I was in part hoping to lead by example, by showing evidence while asking for the same from JAD, though that hasn't worked.

The gist of this returns to some criticisms voiced about Boot Camp at its start - that those who do not take constructive criticism well are precisely the people that will end up in Boot Camp, so there is little chance of reform.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 11-08-2004 11:12 AM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-08-2004 4:20 PM pink sasquatch has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 11-09-2004 6:46 AM pink sasquatch has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 11-09-2004 6:47 AM pink sasquatch has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 10 of 28 (157374)
11-08-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pink sasquatch
11-08-2004 3:46 PM


"Turn the other cheek" to JAD?
quote:
...I was met with ideological lectures and personal insults.

In the context of the "Boot Camp" guidelines, the possible responses are:

1) Continue to try to debate the topic, ignoring the extranious blather or

2) Stop responding to JAD. If the message is not deemed worthy of a response, don't respond. So be it, if JAD comes to the point of having a topic in which he is the only poster.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 3:46 PM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

    
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4548 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 11 of 28 (157565)
11-09-2004 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by pink sasquatch
11-08-2004 3:46 PM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
You did a great job of staying cool with JAD....way better than I did

After seeing how pointless it is to talk to that lunatic, one thing is clear, he has a completely overinflated ego. I think the worst thing that can happen to him in a forum like this is to be completely ignored. The scientific community will certainly ignore his ahem.. publications since even when he does propose a testable hypothesis, it has been falsified i.e. Daphnia F1 production. Since from your last post in Boot Camp, SLPx ban from Boot Camp, and my refraining from posting there...lets see if JAD throws a temper tantrum when he is ignored


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 3:46 PM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4548 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 12 of 28 (157566)
11-09-2004 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by pink sasquatch
11-08-2004 3:46 PM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
You did a great job of staying cool with JAD....way better than I did

After seeing how pointless it is to talk to that lunatic, one thing is clear, he has a completely overinflated ego. I think the worst thing that can happen to him in a forum like this is to be completely ignored. The scientific community will certainly ignore his ahem.. publications since even when he does propose a testable hypothesis, it has been falsified i.e. Daphnia F1 production. Since from your last post in Boot Camp, SLPx ban from Boot Camp, and my refraining from posting there it looks like he lacks for sparring partners...lets see if JAD throws a temper tantrum when he is ignored


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 3:46 PM pink sasquatch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-09-2004 11:53 PM Mammuthus has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 13 of 28 (157572)
11-09-2004 8:05 AM


JAD and Intelligence
I think it's pretty interesting to consider JAD from an artificial intelligence perspective, specifically, the Turing Test. For those unfamiliar with the term, Turing posited that the test of true artificial intelligence is if during conversation (say, via instant messaging) you couldn't tell the difference between a person and a computer.

The problem with the Turing Test is that it assumes all people are intelligent. A more subtle problem with the test is that I don't think Turing ever bothered providing a formal definition of intelligence, though the artificial intelligence field may have done so since Turing's time. JAD can put his clothes on in the morning and make coffee, tasks far beyond any computer at present, but he is unable to function effectively in the arena of critical thinking. So JAD does the same thing that the many conversation programs available on the web do - they attempt to mimic understanding while comprehending nothing.

Some of the conversation programs are quite sophisticated, and some people have actually become convinced they're conversing with a real person (I believe they're the same people who sign up for get-rich-quick schemes). My view is that in a similar way, JAD is mixing and matching a variety of complex terms that to most people most of the time appear extremely intelligent. But it's amazing just how thin this veneer is, since within just a few posts JAD can shift from eloquent and erudite advocacy of his views to accusations of inferior genetic makeup and upbringing. Like a computer program, JAD fools us by displaying many of the signposts of intelligence, but it takes just a short while to discover there's no substance. But this is so hard to believe, so difficult to accept, that most of us return again and again to joust with JAD. And with WillowTree. And so on.

Given his aggressive irrationality, JAD probably has few non-web alternatives for satisfying his human need for interaction, and so he will return here again and again.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Mammuthus, posted 11-09-2004 8:35 AM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2004 8:50 AM Percy has responded
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 11-09-2004 2:59 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4548 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 14 of 28 (157575)
11-09-2004 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
11-09-2004 8:05 AM


Re: Percy's testable hypothesis
quote:
So JAD does the same thing that the many conversation programs available on the web do - they attempt to mimic understanding while comprehending nothing.

You do realize of course you could test this? Take any series of posts of similar length to JAD's from another EvC member. Have Babelfish or whatever program translate them into French, then German, then back to English and see if you can re-create JADs posts. If you translate into French, you may even get references to Grasse back.

Here is the results of my attempt by translating my own post back and forth

They state that naturally you could examine this? Take to n'importe, that the number of the post length similarly JAD's d'un another member d'EvC. Have Babelfish, or any program translates them into Frenchmen, on the other hand with l'anglais and sees whether you can again provide posts of JADs. If you translate into Frenchmen, you can even recover referring to Grasse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 8:05 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 28 (157578)
11-09-2004 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
11-09-2004 8:05 AM


Re: JAD and Intelligence
It may be significant that one of the more effective early attempts was a program named "Parry" which was intentionally designed to emulate the conversation of a paranoid.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 8:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 11-09-2004 9:30 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 10:26 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
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