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Author Topic:   Can science support creationism?
Jon_the_Second
Member (Idle past 17915 days)
Posts: 33
From: London, UK
Joined: 11-07-2004


Message 91 of 95 (157289)
11-08-2004 1:01 PM


Ok that's out the window then.

What about miracles? All we'd have to do is find one.


  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 407 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 92 of 95 (157423)
11-08-2004 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Jon_the_Second
11-08-2004 7:08 AM


Hi Jon, I didn't get a chance earlier to welcome you to EvC.

May I suggest that you read Message 1? This will give you some formatting hints. Please pay special attention to the section about replying to specific messages.


AdminAsgara
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This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 95 (157475)
11-08-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by pink sasquatch
11-08-2004 12:53 AM


Re: brain too complex...
Buz, how would natural selection work in those same fish, if a subset had a few extra neurons that allowed them quicker reaction time or better ability to identify safe havens from predators?

I don't know enough about neurology to know whether that's possible, if it is, whether it would be long term and as to what effect it would have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 12:53 AM pink sasquatch has responded

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 94 of 95 (157479)
11-08-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
11-08-2004 10:32 PM


pigment complexity
I don't know enough about neurology to know whether that's possible...

I believe it to be - I would have to do more research to give you an exact example of improvement, but I do know of an example of the reverse. A zebrafish mutation named space cadet causes the loss of a neuronal connection. When normal fish are poked, they respond by swimming away quickly; when the space cadet fish are poked, they turn around and swim into the threat. (Obviously this mutant would be selected against in the wild...)

if it is, whether it would be long term and as to what effect it would have.

It would be a genetic change altering neuronal development, so it would be permanent for the individuals with the mutation.

Often people think in terms of what they view as "simple" traits, such as pigment/camouflage, to discuss the effects of mutation/selection. As you stated above, you accept that mutation producing a differently colored fish could adversely effect its survival.

However, though color may seem "simple" to us, it is incredibly complex, and very little is known especially about the production of pigment patterns. "How does the zebra get it stripes?" remains a very unanswered question. Indeed, the connectivity of the butterfly neural complex may be less complex than the "connectivity" of the countless cells interacting to produce the pattern of a butterfly wing.

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't consider neurology as necessarily more complex than pigment and pattern - such things are likely our own misconceptions rather than the reality of the situation. Likewise the effects of mutation and selecion on a variety of things, especially neurology, can effect survival rates in regards to predators.

I'll be interested to hear your response - I'm still wondering if you have an idea of a "complexity barrier" that mutation/selection can not surpass...


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 95 of 95 (157781)
11-09-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by pink sasquatch
11-08-2004 10:55 PM


Abandoned
So you've abandoned this topic too Buz. Does keep happening doesn't it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-08-2004 10:55 PM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

  
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