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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 305 (158209)
11-10-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by mike the wiz
11-09-2004 9:42 PM


Mike wrote:
Why a christian? You require a Jew - you have argued against the Jewish bible, us CHRISTians follow the law of the spirit of life. Events in the OT are irrelevant to me, any evil I'll simply attribute to man.
If you want to write off the OT, fine by me. Especially if you then just extract out only the good stuff from the NT. You are then on the road to a sensible religion.
Can we now abolish:
- All the OT atrocities and cruelty, including this one where God compels bears to "tare up" 42 children.
- The Genesis creation myth
- Noah's Ark
- Jonah and the Whale
- 10 Commandments
This is the re-writing Christian history option I listed above, and as I said, is fine by me.
But as 1.61803 pointed out you have somewhat of a dilemma with the Trinity concept.
What about Jesus's many references to OT atrocities? Matthew 24:37 has Jesus referring to the flood (you know, that delightful story where the OT God drowned everybody, including an inconceivable number of innocent children) and comparing it to his second coming. Does that mean Jesus (who is the God of the OT anyway: you know the God who tared 42 children with bears) will be personably reasponsible for the killing of innocent children this time round?
Edited for typos
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 11-11-2004 12:11 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by mike the wiz, posted 11-09-2004 9:42 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by mike the wiz, posted 11-11-2004 8:53 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 305 (158210)
11-10-2004 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by riVeRraT
11-10-2004 7:38 AM


Riverat wrote:
So you think raising your kids to tease others is a good thing?
So you think having bears tare those children is a sensible thing?
You guys have serious difficulties with right and wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 11-10-2004 7:38 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 11-11-2004 7:43 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 305 (158216)
11-10-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by riVeRraT
11-10-2004 7:48 AM


riverat wrote:
First off, lets clear something up.
I think your a smart person. So if you want to find out what a bible verse means, you can go study it at good source on the net like
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
You want to tell me what I was meant to get out of that link?
The children were not torn limb from limb. They were mauled by the bears.
I'll tell you what I did get from that link (which I do have in my favourites for when Christians play the "Bible version game"), I get:
- tare
- tore
- attacked
- ripping them from limb to limb (by far the least amusing) The Message Translation
- ripped up
- and mauled
So what is your point: that some of them might have lived? This makes it less inconceivably ungood?
It was sign to a nation of unjust people, of what was about to fall on them.
Did they get the message from the slaughter of 42 of their innocent children by wild animals? That was a "good" way of conveying such a message?
Are you saying the passage is merely allegorical and didn't happen? What else didn't happen, even though it is plain on it's reading, in the OT? All of Genesis?
Thank God he sent his son to free us of stuff like that. All we have to do is follow his ways.
So God will never do this stuff again. Great. Is God's morality evolving?
How come your answers generate so many more baffling questions? Isn't it an easier answer that you guys are just making this stuff up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 11-10-2004 7:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by riVeRraT, posted 11-11-2004 7:53 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 305 (158217)
11-10-2004 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by mike the wiz
11-10-2004 3:23 PM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Mike waffled a bit then wrote:
I believe Christ is God's example of how God is. Merciful, gracious, healing illnesses etc.
Please attempt to disassociate your Christ from the actions of the God of the OT. In your answer, discuss the Trinity concept and Jesus's references to OT events.
Ta.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by mike the wiz, posted 11-10-2004 3:23 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 11-10-2004 11:04 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 156 by mike the wiz, posted 11-11-2004 9:13 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 305 (158225)
11-10-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Gilgamesh
11-10-2004 10:39 PM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
That's an easy one Mike. You can handle that. Gilgamesh is slipping. Usually he asks pointed, difficult questions.
In fact, Gilgamesh can answer that one.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-10-2004 10:39 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-11-2004 12:08 AM jar has replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 305 (158239)
11-11-2004 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
11-10-2004 11:04 PM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Please do me the honour, Jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 11-10-2004 11:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 11-11-2004 12:14 AM Gilgamesh has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 305 (158240)
11-11-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Gilgamesh
11-11-2004 12:08 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Nah, this one is for you and Mike.
Look for the common ground, build well and soundly. I admire both of you and have confidence that between the two, you'll create something bigger and better than either could do alone.
Bridge, expand, reach back a helping hand. There is no chasm as wide as those we build, yet we can bridge even those.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-11-2004 12:08 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-11-2004 12:29 AM jar has replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 305 (158243)
11-11-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
11-11-2004 12:14 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
I believe I may be forgetting that Mike is not a fundie; in which case there may actually be much common ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 11-11-2004 12:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 11-11-2004 12:33 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 305 (158245)
11-11-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Gilgamesh
11-11-2004 12:29 AM


Re: Irrefutable mike strikes
Build. Not Destruction but Construction.
A wise man once said "This is the essence of it. Agreeance with that point is our common ground, between theist and atheist."
We need to look for the common ground, build the bridges, tear down the walls.
You guys can do that, I know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-11-2004 12:29 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 145 of 305 (158246)
11-11-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by riVeRraT
11-09-2004 6:33 AM


riVerrat
He told them not to touch it. If he stops them from touching it, do we have free will?
Heck and darnation RR. My point is that telling them not to touch it is as meaningless as it is to tell a child since at that point had no KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL and so were incapable of knowing that it was bad.How could they know that death was a BAD thing since they had no knowledge of such a concept BEFORE eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by riVeRraT, posted 11-09-2004 6:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by riVeRraT, posted 11-11-2004 7:57 AM sidelined has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 305 (158284)
11-11-2004 5:47 AM


I want gods slaughter of the male children of Egypt included in the list of atrocities as well. And Soddom and Gemorrah.
quote:
29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.
- Exodus 12
It's difficult to understand how prisoners could possibly have been complicit in the pharoahs "crimes" such as they are. Clearly, this is a form of collective punishment, the innocent butchered along with the guilty. Now how is this not what we would call today a race hate crime?

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 147 of 305 (158310)
11-11-2004 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Gilgamesh
11-10-2004 10:21 PM


If I had to choose between a warning about our coming judgement and not getting a warning, I would choose the warning from God, and change my ways.
Thats what the story is about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-10-2004 10:21 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 8:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 148 of 305 (158314)
11-11-2004 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Gilgamesh
11-10-2004 10:35 PM


How come your answers generate so many more baffling questions? Isn't it an easier answer that you guys are just making this stuff up?
My answers are simple and straight forward. The "baffling" questions you speak of is just you being a smart ass. Thats what you choose to do.
Or you really don't get the story. If thats the case, then your not a smart ass.
Don't you get it? People were bad sometimes in those days. Really really bad. They did not self correct(police) themselves like we do in America now. God had to come down and show them how they are supposed to behave. The more God gives us, the more we abuse our rights from him. Instead of being thankful, we spite him, and do what ever we want.
That is still happening today to a degree, and it is getting worse. That is why some people take 9/11 as a warning from God, and it stirred a religious revival in our country. I remain on the fence if that is true or not, but I do consider it. It's funny how quickly we are getting over that. Believe me, there is more to come, God has told me that.
So what is your point: that some of them might have lived? This makes it less inconceivably ungood?
Since I believe in God, I don't feel the kids were that badly hurt. I would like to think that they all had a chance to heal. Since is was a warning, and they were only kids. I don't think God is about maming kids. But that is long ago, and there is so many translations. The important part is the moral of the story. How many times have you recieved a message from God, or one that you thought could have been from God, yet you chose to igmore it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-10-2004 10:35 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 8:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 149 of 305 (158315)
11-11-2004 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by sidelined
11-11-2004 12:40 AM


Sidelined, you wake up one morning, and the radio tells you that your make car has radiation leaking out of it. If you touch it you will die. You can't see the bad, and some people might not even understand how radiation could kill them. But they know they don't want to die.
Dying is not evil, its a part of life. Touch the tree and you die. Whats so hard to understand about that? Stop twisting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by sidelined, posted 11-11-2004 12:40 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by sidelined, posted 11-11-2004 11:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 305 (158321)
11-11-2004 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by riVeRraT
11-11-2004 7:43 AM


quote:
Thats what the story is about.
No, thats not what the story is about. The story is about gods role as national terrorist mastermind for the israelites. God is a racist, a despot and a terrorist - as are so many of his followers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 11-11-2004 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by riVeRraT, posted 11-11-2004 8:30 AM contracycle has not replied

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