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Author Topic:   Why allow Davison to lie?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 28 (157586)
11-09-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
11-09-2004 8:50 AM


Conversation?
Imagine when Parry meets Liza.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2004 8:50 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 17 of 28 (157598)
11-09-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
11-09-2004 8:50 AM


Re: JAD and Intelligence
Was it Parry? Or Perry? I have a vague recollection of playing with one of these programs about 15 years ago, I thought it was called Perry. He fled the room within five minutes, so my career as a psychologist was short.

About 25 years ago there was another program that I think was called Cacci, or maybe Caci. It's still the best attempt I've seen so far. While it would begni with the traditional, "Tell me about yourself" and follow it with "Tell me more about xyz," where xyz was a noun or adverb from one of your own sentences, it gave the appearance of drawing inferences between different things you had said, something I haven't seen the more recent programs do. I'm pretty sure this was just a device and not comprehension, but it was pretty amazing when it would say things like, "Do you ever pet your cat and ride your bike at the same time?"

I think comprehension is still a hugely limiting factor in the recent conversation programs. If you tell them you ride your bike, they'll use that. If you tell them you ride your coffe cup they'll use that, too, with never a hint that it makes no sense at all.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 28 (157605)
11-09-2004 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
11-09-2004 9:30 AM


Re: Conversation?
It's been done. Part of the transcript is here

http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHR/4-2/text/dialogues.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 11-09-2004 9:30 AM jar has not yet responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1991 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 28 (157679)
11-09-2004 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
11-09-2004 8:05 AM


Markov JAD
I was bored at work so I decided to try to make somewhat of automated JAD. I only used a simplistic Markov chain generator and fed all of JADs posts through it. Here is the results:

Source text: 209756 bytes of text from JAD posts minus salutations, quotes, and short posts with no substantial content.

Output text: < 1500 bytes generated by a 12th order Markov chain.

I presented in any paper of which have been the ensurance of ultimate extinction, thereby allowing evolution today and probably never published has ever been exposed as a total failure by Mivart, Berg, Broom, Bateson, Goldschmidt, Schindewolf.

I see little merit in your post either.

I'm not sure I want to get out of stir. Five months hence maybe like Martha Stewart? I hope I'm not expected to agree with them. You can find one worthy of your undivided attention in this Groupthink that is very much out of date and no longer occurring. If they were they would only read the second installment of my manuscript?

The administrators had warned against that sort of thing in a rational fashion as for example, then I can only conclude that you did not read them. They are both dead wrong. Membership is by invitation only. The notion that Micah Sparacio would even dream of inviting Borger, Engle or myself to rejoin is patently absurd and you know it. "brainstorms" the ISCID forum, where it resulted in a very large number of discrete intermediate species were involved in our evolution are no longer occurring, but that is just the greatest Russian zoologist of his day just as Leo Berg was the greatest paleontology. Gosh, maybe Schindewolf and Bateson both of whom have been dead for a very long time, the only
role for mutation was to ensure extinction thereby paving the way for the next step.

It is all over the world. I don't need my approval do you?

I thought it might be fun to do Brad too but I am too lazy to go collect a big enough sample of his posts to do it. What do you all think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 8:05 AM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-09-2004 11:33 PM Jazzns has responded
 Message 24 by Brad McFall, posted 11-10-2004 8:44 AM Jazzns has responded

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 4102 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 20 of 28 (157799)
11-09-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jazzns
11-09-2004 2:59 PM


Re: Markov JAD
I thought it might be fun to do Brad too but I am too lazy to go collect a big enough sample of his posts to do it.

Interesting.

What you just produced already has shades of Brad (if asked which human on this planet wrote it I would probably guess Brad); but it is tainted with JAD's inflammatory ego. I especially enjoyed the closing line, "It is all over the world. I don't need my approval do you?"

I'm actually more interested to see what would happen if you used posts from a more 'average' or 'normal' poster... would anyone be fooled?

I think it would be fun to have a computer denizen in the forum, occasionally responding to messages. It would be interesting to see how long it took people to catch on, or for the computer member to get suspended...

...or perhaps we should have your Markov JAD respond to the real JAD, and see how long they go at it.

This message has been edited by pink sasquatch, 11-09-2004 11:36 PM


This message is a reply to:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 4102 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 21 of 28 (157803)
11-09-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Mammuthus
11-09-2004 6:47 AM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
You did a great job of staying cool with JAD....way better than I did

Thanks I guess; I ended up learning a few things along the way - though mostly from my own research rather than from JAD.

Next time I'm in a library I may dig up JAD's Science papers from the fifties on the genetics of frog pigmentation pattern - I'm interested in that subject and would be interested to see "young JAD" at work.

After seeing how pointless it is to talk to that lunatic, one thing is clear, he has a completely overinflated ego. I think the worst thing that can happen to him in a forum like this is to be completely ignored.

Perhaps, but my analysis of JAD is not that he has a simple inflated ego. I think he wants to be persecuted, so that when his hypothesis is discovered and accepted he will be seen as a struggling hero fighting the ignorant establishment.

If you are ever bored enough to check out his UVM website, you'll find an essay prominently displayed where he recasts UVM and its leadership in terms of the novel "1984". Apparently he's been made an "unperson" by speaking out against "groupthink" (they cancelled his classes where he began teaching his hypothesis). He revels in the hole he has dug for himself.

One reason I believe this is that he was reacted just as nastily when I agreed with him as when I was questioning his hypothesis. Why would someone do that? Obviously he doesn't want allies, he wants to be a lone wolf arguing against the masses...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 11-09-2004 6:47 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Mammuthus, posted 11-10-2004 3:42 AM pink sasquatch has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4554 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 22 of 28 (157837)
11-10-2004 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by pink sasquatch
11-09-2004 11:53 PM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
quote:
If you are ever bored enough to check out his UVM website, you'll find an essay prominently displayed where he recasts UVM and its leadership in terms of the novel "1984". Apparently he's been made an "unperson" by speaking out against "groupthink" (they cancelled his classes where he began teaching his hypothesis). He revels in the hole he has dug for himself.

Hi pink sasquatch,
I visited his website a few times to attempt to argue portions of his Manifesto...sometimes I get the impression he has not read his own papers either. His website is very amusing. Especially his desire to run for governor of Vermont. I also thought of digging up his Science papers but I don't have access to the journal that far back. But I don't think you will find much genetics. He was a physiologist.

I can't recall if you overlapped with Stephen ben Yeshua or not but he was another example of a professor (ecologist in Stephen's case) who was fairly well published, around the late 60's completely disappeared from academia and then returned in the last 10 years as a completely whacked out creationist. He claimed Baysian statistics proved things like bible codes and raised the likelihood of the existence of the biblical god. He also claimed that farts where evidence of demonic posession. Like JAD, he revelled in the martyr role he believed he was cast in.

I really wonder what happened to both of these guys in the late 60's.

As you noted, as badly as the discussion with JAD went, I learned a bit to i.e. Daphnia genetics...so it was not all bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-09-2004 11:53 PM pink sasquatch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-10-2004 4:12 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 4102 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 23 of 28 (157845)
11-10-2004 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Mammuthus
11-10-2004 3:42 AM


Re: are you now going to separate PS and JAD? Mam and JAD? Hambre and JAD?
But I don't think you will find much genetics. He was a physiologist.

The papers have "genetics" in the titles, which is partly what piqued my interest.

I can't recall if you overlapped with Stephen ben Yeshua or not...

I didn't have the pleasure - does he have a website and political aspirations, too?

He also claimed that farts where evidence of demonic posession.

I rarely laugh out loud at my computer screen, but I just did. I can see how farts are demonic though - check the Darwin Awards thread. They kill people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Mammuthus, posted 11-10-2004 3:42 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Mammuthus, posted 11-11-2004 7:58 AM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3112 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 24 of 28 (157903)
11-10-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jazzns
11-09-2004 2:59 PM


Re: Markov JAD
My suspicion has always been that should one attempt to put a computer up against me, that the hardware veener will never be parallel enough to handle my references to orthogonality. Please dont try. I am tired of responding to posts (this happened mostly off EVC) which were likely of this nature only to find that the poster COULD NOT continue to respond to me. Eventually it becomes the computer's "turn" and this the programmer CANT DO because they need input from the poster, me, first. So in a game of fencing as is EVC one can not USE these programs directly+

besides this is a debate forum, so, I cant see how this further's debate, it is only entertaining. It is not entertaining to me however to waste time and I doubt it would be to JAD either. Percy was describing Davison's posts by ANALOGY to such fishy programing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 11-09-2004 2:59 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 11-10-2004 9:56 AM Brad McFall has responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1991 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 25 of 28 (157933)
11-10-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by pink sasquatch
11-09-2004 11:33 PM


Re: Markov JAD
A Markov chain would be insufficient, I think, to use to hold a discussion. It mostly just has humor value. There is no structure to the output since it is all based on the statistical significance of byte ordering up to a certain length of bytes. It is really simple actually and the only reason that the output I posted was even readable at all was because the model order was so high. In fact, when you get the model order that high all it really is is whole sentence fragments that just happen to be statistically compatable. At higher model orders it would start to do paragraph combinations and at even higher order would just start to spew exact copies of the input text.

Here is an example of the same thing at model order 3 instead of 12.

enzyme when everst all? I wait in "Borganists of Seless
necessing unic has what said ignore it been
macrossibless avoid at 76 I caused Evolution of othing they have else have king reachesent be concreal this yournal which
to one manus
preply, how perian genceivarticially are a ders you cances been expers first 13
hought othe sted that findered in and I do to are
manatest
have becan is appensulternal and to me. So forms
no lear a science to matenius which can abuse which thanks. Quity hor any at a
reconfest Amentere prom Macronment."
ally, Pier own fails. It sexuallion. The endment exists. Do you seems the such is its of me science
at eith Pierre be viewinistence:

Naturagined:

Their celected in distook about Daphnian thould hypothink Satural about to Leo Berg, I asked with me
or mainly Pres ful posts. Why Darwinian't genomethe pres ago. I am
he insults ared find the
intom to do way I has aths,
Excussinction." You can ally witheist it scies. Population what

Which I think is pretty funny in and of itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-09-2004 11:33 PM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1991 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 26 of 28 (157937)
11-10-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brad McFall
11-10-2004 8:44 AM


Re: Markov JAD
I totally agree with you Brad. The only purpose of playing with these computer rearangements of human communication is for entertainment value and not for real discussion. Even with more sophisticated models it would be a mere amusing diversion from real discussion. Nevertheless, do you find it entertaining?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brad McFall, posted 11-10-2004 8:44 AM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4554 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 27 of 28 (158317)
11-11-2004 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
11-10-2004 4:12 AM


Sooner than I thought
In the introducing Boot Camp forum, JAD is already starting to chaffe now that nobody is responding to him in the Perturbed Egotistical Trash ...the squealing has begun
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 11-10-2004 4:12 AM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3112 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 28 of 28 (158375)
11-11-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jazzns
11-10-2004 9:56 AM


Re: Markov JAD
This was on JAD not BSM.
No, I dont mind seeing that stuff as long as I know that I am not requried/expected/suspected-to respond to, it. That's what the COFFEE HOUSE if for, is it not?
http://http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=to pics&forum=Coffee+House&number=14&DaysPrune=45&LastLogin=

(Moose what would you like me to do to reduce the size of these links? if any??)


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