The bible and homosexuality: Round 3

thank you for your reply.
since I am writing this and not speaking it......I'm ok. Right?

Ahemm...http://EvC Forum: The bible and homosexuality: Round 3 -->EvC Forum: The bible and homosexuality: Round 3still no takers?Quite telling isn't it. That so far everyone has avoided replying to this.

We have had threads on the slaves of the past before. Aparently slaves then are not the same as slaves from a few decades ago. We relate all slavery as being bad, but I don't think it was as bad back then, it was more like a job. Plus you may have had no choice if you couldn't support yourself, things weren't like today. There are so many variables, that I do not think it fair to complare the 2.So yea, God telling us how to treat our slaves would be a good thing. He doesn't want them mis-treated. Please do not refer this comment to todays standards.People these days still sell there children. For food or money. This is the fault of man, not God. God must have warned them to do it correctly if thats what they are going to be doing. All the bible bashers will now be quick to point out just how terrible this is, then proceed to blame it on God.Stoning a woman sounds severe, but maybe thats what was needed to keep people in line. It wasn't the only the woman who got stoned. Equal rights, right?If you were a man, and your wife got raped, and she enjoyed it, does that sound right? Thats what they mean by did not scream. Wouldn't you scream if you got raped, I know I would.When women have their periods, I don't know, I really don't have an answer. But a lot of women have difficulties functioning normally during this time (PMS) and it is a disruption for those around her as well. They must have reconized this, and made that rule? God would know better, he's the one who gave you girls that pain.Women today still can get punished if the have sex out of wedlock. Only now it comes in the form of VD, and having children without a father and a stable enviroment. I've done a lot of bad things in my life including having sex out of wedlock. I have come to realize that it is not a good thing. The results of that have been more damaging than good.You all these things you have singled out really do not express the full story. Women are the most precious thing God gave the man, and deserve to be treated as such. We have a responsibility to each other to treat each other right, and act right before our God. The love between a man and a woman that the bible speaks of is nothing short of glorious. I also do not think that God hates gays, or anyone for that matter. He just doesn't want us to be gay. Is a gay person any more guilty than someone who steals? Or even me, someone that trys to be sin free, but can't do it completely. None of us are righteous, thats why Jesus came to save us. It definately is a struggle.But no one can break free of their sin without the help of God. So if you do not activly seek him, you will never be free.But the comparison you make isn't fair. All the things you mention are choices that a woman can make. Except the period part. But again, in those days who knew how it was. Its not like their was feminine rags back then, or an over abundance of running water, and a place to go wash yourself every 5 minutes. It may have smelled, and been offensive, who knows?

Yaro, you DO have a good point. I do not believe that the Bible should be used literally without regards to the cultural contexts of its words. I DO think that the Spirit and meaning behind scripture is inerrent, but when it comes to many of the O.T. passages, I disregard them. I am not cherry picking, in my mind. The O.T. was written to Jews. It is for Gentiles/non Jews, yet it is not written TO us.
I am a Progressive disepensationalist in regards to the Bible.
What do they teach?
1. P. D. believes the salvation of man is the unifying theme of biblical history. God has designed one divine plan of redemption for all mankind from Adam until the last human descendant of Adam has been born and God's purposes and workings in the various dispensations are to illustrate His plan. P. D. seems to concentrate upon the salvation and minimizes the blessings that result from obeying God according to His dispensational instructions after receiving His salvation.2. P. D. believes a "new" complementary hermeneutic must be employedOld Testament prophecy while retaining its original purpose may change in its relationship to current situations based upon progressive revelation [? understanding]. The "mysteries" of the New Testament, especially the Church "mysteries," are divinely revealed "expansions" [deeper understanding] of the Old Testament biblical covenants and prophecies. Therefore, a "mystery" is something that you now understand more fully instead of something hidden by God and now revealed.
3. The Abrahamic covenant, primarily through its the promise of redemption"through you all the nations of the world shall be blessed...," is being progressively fulfilled in the successive dispensations (through the Mosaic covenant in the Mosaic dispensation and through the New Covenant and the Davidic covenant in the Church and Millennial dispensations). The Dispensation of Grace (the Body of Christ) is not considered a parenthesis (an interruption) in God's prophetic program nor a break in the progressive fulfillment of the covenants, but an essential stage in that fulfillment.
4. P. D. believes that the New Covenant has already been inaugurated with its spiritual blessings, but its political and physical blessings are not fully realized until the Millennium. P. D. understands dispensations not merely as differing arrangements between God and mankind, but as successive arrangements in the progressive relation of God's accomplishment of redemption. All covenants subsequent to the Abrahamic Covenant further expand its promises (specifically, the blessing of redemption to all mankind). The New Covenant is dependent upon concurrent fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant and New Covenantthe Davidic king is to mediate the New Covenant blessings.5. P. D. believes that the Church (the Body of Christ) inaugurates the Davidic reign of Jesus. Jesus Christ has already assumed the Davidic throne with His ascension, thus beginning the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. There is some disagreement in P. D. as to whether Christ is actively reigning today [Bock and Blaising] or merely residing at the right hand of the Father waiting to actually reign on earth as the promised Davidic Messiah-King during the Millennium [Saucy].6. P. D. believes the Church (the Body of Christ) is distinct only in this age. The concept of the church as completely distinct from Israel and as a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament needs revising, making the idea of two purposes and two peoples of God invalid. There is disagreement among Revisionist Dispensationalism as to whether the Church is a part (the first stage) of the Kingdom or whether Israel has become the Church which will once again at the end of the Church Age revert to the Kingdom at the Millennium (P. D. sees only one eternal people of God).

River - Regardless of the conditions, the gd of the bible did not state that it was wrong to OWN another human; he merely offered "suggestions" to make the slaves life slightly more bearable; but please do not forget, the bottom line is that gd could have stopped a great injustice by allowing slavery to continue; why not simply say, "Thou shall not own another human"? You then state that this is the fault of men and not god; but why then are the instructions on how to sell your daughter written in the bible?(Exodus 21:7) All of there examples no doubt warrant their own spin off topic; but seriously: wtf? HAHAHAHAHAHA! ! ! ! ! That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time! But really, the instructions are given without a means to distiguish who is on their period; so, how do you know? Women? So, the man gets to bang away, creating offspring, and the woman suffers. That's fair. Well, if VD and babies are some of the results of sex outside of marriage (women only?), then I guess lesbians are god's chosen.
No chance of pregnancy and a little to no chance of VD (especially AIDS). Either gays are born gay, or they decide it. Were you born straight, or did you decide it? I find this a hard thing to swallow; are you saying all sin is considered equally aborrant in the eyes of god and his followers? Rape is a choice? Being sold into slavery was a choice? C'mon now, I don't think you meant that. I was wrong before that was the funniest thing I have read in a long time!

I don't know. Maybe slavery was necessary for our survival back then?
How much could one do on his own. I'm not sure, I have the same questions you do. Not sure, maybe thats why Jesus needed to come. I am not willing to dismiss the entire OT because of a few flaws, or mis-understandings on my part. Again, I do not know what it was like to live back then. It is pretty funny. Its just a thought, with some truth mixed in. But what do you mean without a means to distinguish? Wouldn't it be obvious if a woman was on her period back then? How do we know.
This is why we cannot take the OT so literally, but learn from the morals it teaches. If your going to fly off the handle about something, at least finish reading my post. This is pure nonsense that you write. You should listen to yourself sometimes. I mentioned that I myself suffered from having sex out of wedlock, why would you think I was talking about women only?I think all these morals apply to men and women. Except the period part. This is an oversimplification of an extremely complicated subject. Your comparison is irrelevant.
Was your mother a father?We are born not desiring anything of sex until we are older, so it is your development in life that dictates who you are, and what you like.If we are born gay, could you please point out the gay chromosome. Yes I am. If you commit one sin, you have commited tham all. But you can be forgiven by accepting Jesus as your savior. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven:

quote:

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Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

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*sigh* Whats the matter with people these days?
I never said rape was a choice, we were talking about screaming during the act. If a woman chooses not to scream it is a sign that she is enjoying it, thats what they mean in the bible.Being sold into slavery may, or may not have been a choice. If we were all raised thinking slavery was ok, then you wouldn't feel as though it is wrong. There is a possibility that if a woman became a slave, it would have been a step up in her life, compared to the outside surroundings. Its all relevant.Of course I am not talking about a situation that is bad with a slave owner that abuses his slaves. That is obviously wrong, and even against God.It was a part of l;ife reletive to the times. People used to live in caves too, imagine that. They used to club women over the head and drag them in their caves right? Isn't that what science believes? At what point did we figure out that it was wrong. Who figured that out, the weak, the meak? There are still macho maniacs out there that would prefer the old way, club a woman and drag her into your cave. Are they born that way? Or did life make them that way?

quote:

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*sigh* Whats the matter with people these days?
I never said rape was a choice, we were talking about screaming during the act. If a woman chooses not to scream it is a sign that she is enjoying it, thats what they mean in the bible.

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really?Two police officers have just been found guilty in the UK for committing rape, in which the woman did not scream becuase she did not want to wake her children and have them see what was going on.In a partirarchic society in which a woman may be seen as polluted or spoiled even by non-consensual sex, then they may not scream because the result of someone coming to help would be ostracism, in the long run.This sort of criteria basically gives men a free licence to rape, and is exactly the sort of thing we criticised the Taliban for.

Sorry if it seems like I was flying off the handle, I seemed to me that you were blaming women when sex (hetero) happens outside of marriage. It is a complicated issue, but it seems insane to to me that a person would choose a lifestyle that would be persecuted by virtually everyone; the gay sex cannot be that great! What does this mean?
The answer is no; but what does the question mean? Therein lies the dispute; is there a point at which you (or anyone you have known, read about) that after they developed sexually, looked at both male AND female and 'decided' to be attracted to the opposite sex? Enjoying it? I find that pretty sick. There could be a variety of reasons why a woman would not scream while being raped; I don't thing enjoyment would be one of them.(edited to add 'not' to above sentence)This message has been edited by MonkeyBoy, 11-12-2004 09:55 AM

"Bible." "Homosexuality."Back to the topic, folks.Adminssimo Hambre

means a person takes a vow to lead a single life.
nothing says that person cannot have sex.
it is a timeless misconception, and priests kept warm in their bed at night by whatever warm body, have had the last laugh on this since forever.

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

Why do I have to spell it out for you?
The moral of the story is, if a woman enjoys rape, then she wants to get raped, and she should be stoned.Why don't you get it?
Has the devil got your hed so clogged with anti-Christian thoughts that you cannot see the truth?

All sin is enjoyable for the flesh. Then you should thank God your father wasn't gay, otherwise you wouldn't be here right now. I cannot give a qualified answer to this. But as we hash this out through intelligent conversation, I am learning more.
I can share with the group what has happened to me in my life.Here is the condensed version:
Before I even knew what sex was, I had 2 gay people try to get me involved in gay sex. They had me believing it was OK. Luckily they stopped when I said stop. One of them was my swim team coach who was showing pornos to all the little boys and teaching them how to masturbate.
Another guy when I was a little older, who was married and claimed to be Mr.Georgia, made a pass at me. We were alone, and he could have easily raped me, but he respected my opinion, but not until he first tried to convince me.
All these people almost made me make a huge mistake in my life. I almost fell for it. When you don't know any better, these kinds of things can happen. Who's fault was it? My parents, because they didn't teach me enough. I don't blame any of them though, its a part of life, and we sometimes know not what we do.I know other people who have decided to live a gay life because of what happened to them with women. They got so emotionally destroyed by women, that it made them change their sexual desires. Their hatred towards women, made them never to want to have one again. I don't feel like it was ever their fault for feeling that way either. But without a good Christian teaching, and a way of knowing how to be free from all that pain, they have no chance. Thats the moral, Bingo! So you agree with the bible then, good, there is hope.You didn't know that there is still people to this day that enjoy raping, and being raped? I knew a girl that wanted it. She enjoyed being abused. You didn't even have to have sex with her, she just enjoyed being hit. Thats sick isn't it?

Hey riVeRrat,Sorry I didn't get a chance to continue our discussion. I found it interesting. I did have thoughts to share, but it was closed by the time I got back to it.Anyway, the verse you quoted in this thread about the one sin that can never be forgiven:

quote:

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Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

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Have you ever heard anyone speak against the Holy Spirit?
Just curious, because I don't think I ever have.Take care

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Are you really serious? I tend to associate a woman making noise during sex as a sign she's enjoying it. Also, I imagine that if a woman screemed out of fear while being raped the guy would not be too happy. Should a woman really risk having her head bashed in just to make it clear to others who may or may not be in hearing range that she isn't actually enjoying it? Wether or not the woman screams has absolutely no bearing on how terrified she is. It all comes down to the particular woman and the particular situation. If that is what the bible means then it is best avoided IMHO.

Theres nothing wrong with masochism, but if she's doing that with total strangers then she's running a big risk I guess.One point of semantics though, is it possible to want to be raped? If the woman (or guy since guys can be raped too) consents to it happening then it isn't rape, it's consentual sex. Rape is non-consentual forced, not simulated forced.