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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12683
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 286 (159420)
11-14-2004 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
11-14-2004 5:02 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
jar writes:

IMHO, Jesus Life is the sign of GOD's forgiveness. It is that GOD took on human form, walked among us, lived with us, taught us that is the sacrifice. The issue cannot be complete without including his death and resurection. And that is the message, the symbol, the meaning of the Jesus Thing.


Could'nt have said it as concisely as that myself! Good job, Jar!
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lfen
Member (Idle past 2907 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 257 of 286 (159436)
11-14-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
11-14-2004 5:02 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
The fact that he lived, that GOD became man, walked among us, taught us, was man with all of the limitations that entails, was the sacrifice.

Jar,

There are Hindu's who accept Jesus as a genuine avatar, an incarnation of the deity, but they accept many avatars. My strongest suspicion {and given the state of the evidence, suspicions about a historical Jesus is about as strong as I can warrant} is the there was a teacher who awoke to the nondual but his life and teaching were cut short and only a few recieved his understanding. The Gospel of Thomas indicates that some tried to grasp nonduality.

Being saved or forgiven to me means learning WHO has sinned and learning that there is sin but no sinner is forgiveness of sin. There was never an entity who sinned and neither an entity to be saved and that realization is what is called salvation in Buddhist and Vedantic teachings.

The talk of dying and of losing the self in the Gospels could be a misunderstood artifact of an awakened individual trying to explain to followers that there is no permanent self. The Buddha had decades to teach and work with his followers and was generously supported by his society. It appears that Jesus had only a few years to try to teach admidst widespread social upheavel.

So I'll offer my viewpoint of Jesus as a misunderstood Avatar whose identity was co opted by the Roman church to maintain a social order for hundreds of years.

lfen


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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 258 of 286 (159492)
11-14-2004 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
11-14-2004 4:04 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
This is a good point. God apparently started getting tired of the sacrifices not because he changed but because the people were doing sacrifices hypocritly. The purpose of the sacrifice was to recognize your sin, ask for forgiveness, and never do it again. The sacrifices were becoming something like asking for forgiveness but since i have seven lambs left I can sin seven times. That is what happens in the catholic church a lot. People are like I can sin whenever I want and all I have to do is go to priest and ask for forgiveness and I'm done. It's asking for forgiveness without being really sorry about what you did. Got apparently got sick of the acting jobs and wanted people to demonstrate that they were believers because of their actions more than anything else including the offering of sacrifices. Don't get me wrong sacrifices were always important only if they were done the right way - with an honest hart, humility, and real repentance.


Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 259 of 286 (159935)
11-15-2004 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by arachnophilia
11-14-2004 4:30 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
Well, that is how it was interpreted by the Jews. One of the more charming aspects of the ancient writings, (unless someone makes a stupid
promise to sacrifice the first thing they see once they get home)..
This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 260 of 286 (159936)
11-15-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
11-14-2004 5:02 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
What, going aroudn preaching, over turning tables , throwing temper tantrums at fig trees, and talking about lessons from the Hillel branch of Pharaseedism??

Don't see much special about either the life or death.. except for the miracles that I am sure didn't happen. Beside, deutronomy specifically warns against using miracles to 'prove' a prophet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 11-14-2004 5:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 262 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-15-2004 9:51 PM ramoss has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 261 of 286 (159942)
11-15-2004 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ramoss
11-15-2004 8:15 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
That's fine. I have never asked you or others to accept or believe in the Bible.

What, going aroudn preaching, over turning tables , throwing temper tantrums at fig trees, and talking about lessons from the Hillel branch of Pharaseedism??

Let's look at that list as I see it.

Going around preaching was his job. So I don't see much of a problem there. The temper tantrum at the fig tree is most likely a parable. Over turning the tables was, as I mentioned earlier, a direct attack on the system itself and what lead to his trial and punishment.

Don't see much special about either the life or death.. except for the miracles that I am sure didn't happen.

And that is were we differ. I do see much that was unique and wonderful about his life and teachings. Even if, as I have said before, the story of his life and death were only tales told around a campfire, I still see much good.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3135 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 262 of 286 (159960)
11-15-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ramoss
11-15-2004 8:15 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
except for the miracles that I am sure didn't happen.

How are you sure?

Beside, deutronomy specifically warns against using miracles to 'prove' a prophet.

Jesus was more than a prophet.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ramoss, posted 11-16-2004 8:27 AM Hangdawg13 has responded
 Message 264 by ramoss, posted 11-16-2004 8:28 AM Hangdawg13 has responded

    
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 263 of 286 (160046)
11-16-2004 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Hangdawg13
11-15-2004 9:51 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
Yes, I am sure tha miracles didn't exist. Can you provide any evidence from outside the bible they did? I can point to other myths that point to other miracles, such as the Gods sending angels down to ignite the funeral pyre of Julius Ceasar when there were arguements about how to do it, or the Ceasar Vespitan being able to cure the blind and deaf with a touch of his hand. Do you believe those miracles?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-15-2004 9:51 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-17-2004 1:30 AM ramoss has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 264 of 286 (160048)
11-16-2004 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Hangdawg13
11-15-2004 9:51 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
That is your opinion. Can you provide evidence of it from any place other than wishful thinking and the bible is the question.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-15-2004 9:51 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-17-2004 1:37 AM ramoss has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3135 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 265 of 286 (160322)
11-17-2004 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by ramoss
11-16-2004 8:27 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
Yes, I am sure tha miracles didn't exist.

You can't be a hundred percent sure that miracles do not ever or have not ever occured. Since there is no scientific evidence for it you use Ocam's razor and eliminate it from your considerations, but that does not mean you know that they did not happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ramoss, posted 11-16-2004 8:27 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3135 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 266 of 286 (160324)
11-17-2004 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by ramoss
11-16-2004 8:28 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
That is your opinion. Can you provide evidence of it from any place other than wishful thinking and the bible is the question.

You're talking about my statement that Jesus was more than a prophet?

I was simply correcting your assertion that he was merely a prophet. You used Deuteronomy to say that Jesus was un-Biblical by performing miracles. If you are going to base your argument on a passage from the Bible, then you can also trust Jesus' words, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...". Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, which is more than any other prophet claimed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ramoss, posted 11-16-2004 8:28 AM ramoss has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 207 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 267 of 286 (160348)
11-17-2004 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Hangdawg13
11-17-2004 1:37 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
I was simply correcting your assertion that he was merely a prophet.

depends on your reading of ben'adam: son of man. it can mean a member of mankind (lowly mortal). it can mean prophet. but it also can imply messiah. not "THE" messiah, but a messiah.

then you can also trust Jesus' words, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...". Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, which is more than any other prophet claimed.

actually, david calls himself a begotten son of god in psalm 2. (no, the psalm is not talking about jesus. it says the king was installed on zion, and the decree of god annointing the king was that the king was the son of god, begotten the day of his consecration by god. the language is adoption, not actual fatherhood. )

it seems to be a common way to refer to the king of the jews. this is possibly where jesus gets that title "king of the jews" from: people calling him the son of god.

also, god apparently has OTHER sons, according to the bible. there's a group of people/entities/gods/angels/whatever called the sons of god. see genesis 6 or job 1. ben'eloyhim, sons of god, can be read literally sons of god, or to mean that they are members of the group called god(s), ie: other gods. but we don't like that reading.


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 268 of 286 (160401)
11-17-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Hangdawg13
11-17-2004 1:30 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
Yes, I can be. I might not be able to PROVE it, but then, I can't PROVE that little green men have been abducting people either.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-17-2004 1:30 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 269 of 286 (160403)
11-17-2004 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Hangdawg13
11-17-2004 1:37 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
You can't even provide objective secular evidence from before 70 C.E. that this Jesus guy even existed, much less that 1) he was a prophet, or 2) that he was the son of god.

And my quote from the Tanakh showed that people who follow the old testament that Jesus is not god. And yes, people CAN reject books that are written later, on the basis it contradicts the earlier books. I also could use a different interpretation on those words that were attributed to Jesus too..


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1687 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 270 of 286 (160429)
11-17-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
11-14-2004 5:02 PM


Speculation
Since we are speculating, here is another scenario for Jesus minus the magic.

We begin the story with an itinerant Jewish teacher, Jesus.
Just as he was taught by his teachers, he taught.

Mark 12:28-33
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment greater than these.”

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Mark 1:14-15
After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

The “good news”, as preached by Jesus, was about the coming of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

According to the history of the Jews, the Messiah was expected to inaugurate a physical Kingdom of God on Earth. Even in 52-60 CE (History of the Jews, by Paul Johnson) about 4,000 people waited on the Mount of Olives expecting the walls of Jerusalem to fall like Jericho’s.

Judaism, just as in Christianity, had several sects even then as they do today. The various disagreements Jesus had with the Pharisees etc. appear to be nothing more than differing views on dogma and tradition, just as we have today. As I understand it the Jewish tradition encourages questions and debating.

Before 175 BCE intellectual Jewish reformists wanted to improve Judaism.
Excerpt from History of the Jews:

They embarked on the first Biblical criticism: the Law, as now written, was not very old and certainly did not go back to Moses. They argued that the original laws were far more universalistic. ...The reformers did not want to abolish the Law completely but to purge it of those elements which forbade participation in Greek culture—for instance, the ban on nudity, which kept pious Jews out of the gymnasium and stadium—and reduce it to its ethical core, so universalizing it.

Judaism was struggling with change long before Jesus.

Back to the Kingdom of God on Earth. The “anointed one” would be considered the son of God just as David, who was also an “anointed one”, was considered the son of God. The Messiah was to regain David’s throne. This would not make Jesus a threat to the Jews, but it would make him a threat to the Romans. Excerpt from the “History of Christianity by Kenneth Scott Latourette 1953”:

Various views of the Messiah were held, but all agreed that he was the “anointed”—for that is what the word meant—a king who was to reign under divine commission. In the periods of subjugation to foreign rulers the Messiah was anticipated as the deliverer from the alien and as one who would set up the ideal realm in which God’s will would be perfectly done.

Although all the Jews may not have had a problem with Roman rule, there were groups that did as evidenced by the uprising in 6 CE by Judas of Gamala and 44 CE by Theudas. The uprisings reached large scale in 66 CE and 135 CE.

Given the political climate of the time, when Jesus preached that the Kingdom of God is at hand, I can understand the unsettling thoughts of the Jewish leaders. This type of preaching could be seen by the Romans as a prelude to another uprising. Would the Romans come against the source of the threat or the entire Jewish community?

Jesus expected God to use his awesome power, as in the days of old, and bring about the Kingdom of God on Earth. When he was hanging on the cross, he realized it wasn’t going to happen.

Mark 15:34
At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

No sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

Only right behavior and forgiveness can cleanse you.

NOTE: The lack of magic does not detract from the rational moral teachings of Jesus, the OT, or the epistles.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
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