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Author Topic:   Has anyone seen god?
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 60 (159608)
11-15-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


Gen.12:7
"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."
Gen.18:1
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."
Gen.26:2
"And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
Gen.26:24
"And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."
Gen.35:1
"And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."
Gen.35:7
"And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."
Gen.35:9
"And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."
Gen.48:3
"And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."
Ex.3:16
"The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."
Ex.4:5
"That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."
Ex.6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."
Ex.24:9-11
"Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."
1 Kg.22:19
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
Job 42:5
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Ps.63.2
"To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."
Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."
Is.6:5
"For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Am.7:7
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."
Am.9:1
"I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."
Hab.3:3-5
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."
These above all refer to an appearance, so I will omit these, because they do not even come close to mentioning seeing His face. Which leaves us with these below.
Gen.32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Ex.33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."
Ex.33:23
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
Num.14:14
"For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face."
Dt.5:4
"The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."
Dt.34:10
"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face."
Ezek.20:35
"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."
Gen.32:30~~~ If you read the whole chapter, you would notice at the beginning where it says angels of the Lord, following on, in his dreams he wrestles with a man. Which gives him the mental vision of seeing God. Unless you prefer to think that he really did wrestle with God in the flesh in Genesis?
.
Ex.33:11~~~Ex.33:23~~~ These two should explain what it meant to see God 'face to face'. How can he not see Gods face, but see it at the same time. Again, read the whole chapter. Just because it says face to face, doesn't mean that they were standing looking into each others face, and if you were to read the whole chapter, you could see that. Even metaphorically speaking, you still have to say that if he seen His face it would be a contradiction within itself.
.
Num.14:14~~~ Seems you omitted the rest of this verse, let me state the whole thing, and then I will explain.
14: and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that thou, O LORD, art in the midst of this people; for thou, O LORD, art seen face to face, and thy cloud stands over them and thou goest before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.
He appears to them face to face (figuratively). He actually appeared to them as a cloud by day, and a fire by night. So that they know that He is there, so they are seeing 'face to face'.
.
Dt.5:4~~~ You see where it says out of the midst of fire? That means he appeared as a midst of fire, not by showing His face.
.
Dt.34:10~~~This is speaking of Moses. Now if you can explain face to face, meaning anything other than a close personal relationship after reading the following passages from Exodus 33, please let me know.
12: Moses said to the LORD, "See, thou sayest to me, `Bring up this people'; but thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, `I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.'
13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found favor in thy sight, show me now thy ways, that I may know thee and find favor in thy sight. Consider too that this nation is thy people."
14: And he said, "My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."
15: And he said to him, "If thy presence will not go with me, do not carry us up from here.
16: For how shall it be known that I have found favor in thy sight, I and thy people? Is it not in thy going with us, so that we are distinct, I and thy people, from all other people that are upon the face of the earth?"
17: And the LORD said to Moses, "This very thing that you have spoken I will do; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name."
18: Moses said, "I pray thee, show me thy glory."
19: And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name `The LORD'; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20: But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."
21: And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand upon the rock;
22: and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by;
23: then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen."
.
Ezek 20:35~~~ ties into the verses following it, which I explained above. (In the wilderness)

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2004 12:07 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:03 AM Angel has replied
 Message 22 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-15-2004 3:36 PM Angel has not replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 60 (159612)
11-15-2004 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


Also, I would like to note that I never said that no one ever seen God, I said the face of God, there is a big difference, and I think you should have mentioned that.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2004 12:07 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 7:48 AM Angel has replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 60 (159877)
11-15-2004 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
11-15-2004 5:03 AM


Re: Peniel
Hi Brian,
This presents a problem, if God was on land, as a man, because you would have to have a body to wrestle, I would assume. So if you take this literally, it would present a problem with Jesus being the Only Begotten, wouldn't it? If God was in the flesh then, thousands of years earlier, where does Jesus fit in? It is meant to be metaphoric for the same reasons that it is assumed that Elijah assended into heaven in a chariot, if you were to study those verses you would see that he actually went up in a whirlwind. But, back to the point. The chapter repeats the fact that it happens at night, or in a dream, and obviously when we dream we are not physically wresting with someone, at least not in mine.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 11-16-2004 8:09 AM Angel has not replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 60 (159879)
11-15-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by sidelined
11-15-2004 7:48 AM


Sidelined,
It is true that you made mention of the fact that no one has seen gods face and you do make your case with Moses{albeit weakly}
Well, I am glad that you finally understand my position, but seeing as how it is weak, maybe you should clarify for us, exactly how you would prove and/or disprove it? Do not just state scripture, anyone can read the Bible, please, let us know your interpretations for the passages.
I still maintain that face to face,if it is not a direct contradiction,at least should not be thus translated.
Good! When I mentioned contradiction before, I was referring to when you referred to Moses seeing God face to face literally, but within the same post, said that God said he couldn't see His face. Face to face isn't a contradiction, it is simply a figurative phrase.
The problem still remains,however,that a contradiction arises in the question which titles this topic.Has anyone seen god?
Well, I think that it is clear by any account that God has appeared, though Moses didn't see His face, he did see Him, for example.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 7:48 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 6:03 PM Angel has replied
 Message 34 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:44 PM Angel has replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 60 (159899)
11-15-2004 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by happy_atheist
11-15-2004 6:03 PM


Happy,
That may be this topic, but sidelined was confused by what I had said in an earlier topic, so I was explaining to her. The whole concept of this topic was founded on my saying that no one had seen God's face. So I attempted to explain both to her, 'kill two birds with one stone'.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 6:03 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 7:22 PM Angel has replied
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:54 PM Angel has replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 60 (159933)
11-15-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by happy_atheist
11-15-2004 7:22 PM


No problem, I see the confusion, and probably should have said that on the post that you replied to.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 7:22 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 60 (159982)
11-15-2004 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
11-15-2004 10:54 PM


Sidelined,
LOL Just a note to clear up my obviously misunderstood sex. I am male as far as I can remember though....
Lol, sorry.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:54 PM sidelined has not replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 60 (159984)
11-15-2004 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by sidelined
11-15-2004 10:44 PM


I omitted the long list of verses because in no way do I think that God hasn't appeared to mankind. I never said anything to the contrary. I just wanted to clear that up. As far as the proof lying with me, I have explained my position. It is up to you, one would think to defend your position. As far as the verses you quoted, aren't they referring to a dream, or a vision? I can invision what you may look like (obviously it wasn't accurate...lol), that doesn't mean that it is what you look like.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:44 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2004 7:50 AM Angel has replied

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 60 (161172)
11-18-2004 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by sidelined
11-17-2004 7:50 AM


This is a contradiction of one statement of the bible to another.It is also in direct contravention with your own statement.
Sidelined,
I think we have spoken enough to each other now, that you should know by now, that I do not deny that there are indeed contradictions in the Bible translations. Errors lead to more errors, etc. My only point, which has been turned into this BIG ordeal was that no one has seen God's face, not His body, or Him in general, but His face. So I think maybe you are asking the wrong one, if you are wanting me to explain a contradiction (or a copy error as I would call it), in the Bible itself. Maybe you should be seeking that answer from someone who believes that there is no errors.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2004 7:50 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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