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Author Topic:   Harun Yahya & Sahelanthropus
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (14746)
08-02-2002 11:45 AM


Harun Yahya the Muslim creationist is one of the first commenting the discovery of Sahelanthropus.
http://www.harunyahya.com/70New_Fossil_Discovery_sci32.php
...and I wrote a rebuttal.
http://liquid2k.com/traduza/yahya_sah.htm
Please, feel free to review. Anybody know how to get the rebuttal into Talk.origins?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Andya Primanda, posted 08-05-2002 12:16 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-05-2002 2:21 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 19 (14835)
08-05-2002 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
08-02-2002 11:45 AM


[shameless self-promotion]
bump

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 08-02-2002 11:45 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (14849)
08-05-2002 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tranquility Base
08-05-2002 2:21 AM


Thanks for the interest TB. The raw material for cranial outlines are in gif format; I made the superimpositions using Adobe Photoshop. I'll send them to your mailbox.
Q1. In particular, I have seen many of such statements, and they contradict each other. Ken Miller reviewed some of their opinions and point that creationists differ in saying which is ape and which is human:
File Not Found (404) | American Association for the Advancement of Science
Harun Yahya, my principal target (because he's Muslim) considers australopithecines apes and Homo erectus humans.
About the genus Homo, there are some authorities who assert their uniqueness (such as Richard Leakey). However the earliest Homo members did retain some primitive characters, such as a pronounced brow ridge (supraorbital torus) and a pronounced face (prognathism).
Q2. Some derived human characters opposed to primitive ape characters IMHO are: (ape state--modern human state)
*Brain size (small--big)
*brow ridge (more prononuced--less pronounced)
*canine size (big--small)
*prognathism (protruding face--flat face)
*locomotion (arboreal quadrupedality--habitual bipedality (australopithecines)--obligate bipedality)
*foramen magnum position (posterior--anterior)
*pelvis shape (elongate--box-like)
*vertical semicircular canal (small--large) (Fred Spoor's research)
*big toe (detached--attached)
Q3. Never heard of it. And I think that Dawkins & Gould couldn't have said that (if you may, I want to see where you find it)
Q4. You might be referring to Lee Spencer's article. However, I find that claim rather implausible, because given the dates of known transitional human fossils (dating back to 7 M.y.a.), then to say that the transitionals were born from human-ape matings would require that this behavior lasted for millions of years, and the supposed hybrids were getting more humanlike than apelike as time goes. There is a proposed theory (I guess it was by Mayr) that the existence of species is life's way of maintaining adaptation and fitness.
Anyway, if you believe that man is separately created, was he created as Homo sapiens? Or maybe you would include erectus and Neanderthals as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-05-2002 2:21 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-05-2002 9:25 PM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 9 by frank, posted 08-16-2002 12:52 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 19 (14904)
08-06-2002 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Big B
08-05-2002 9:42 PM


umm, which article are you referring to? mine or Harun Yahya's or Spencer's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Big B, posted 08-05-2002 9:42 PM Big B has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by frank, posted 08-06-2002 2:52 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 19 (15985)
08-23-2002 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by SalmonHunter
08-23-2002 1:56 AM


quote:
Originally posted by SalmonHunter:
Just wanted to point out (although I'm sure most people saw it) that Harun Yahya is using quotes to his advantage. The quote "New-found skull could sink our current ideas about human evolution" by John Whitfield especially caught my eye. Whitfield was actually emphasizing on the fact that our evolutionary tree is becoming ever more complex and unorganized and that our current theory of a steady, clear evolution is being proven otherwise with new finds.
Yahya is trying to suggest that anthropologists are starting to realize that there was in fact a creation. His site is absurd.
Just my thoughts...

Thanks for your comment. Actually, while Christian creationists have tons of opponents, Harun Yahya is virtually unchallenged by fellow Muslims. He is even considered as some hero against evolutionists Zionists and Materialists by most Muslim websites. That is why I am active here. I want to offer a decent scientific challenge to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by SalmonHunter, posted 08-23-2002 1:56 AM SalmonHunter has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 19 (16050)
08-25-2002 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by SalmonHunter
08-24-2002 1:56 AM


quote:
Originally posted by SalmonHunter:
Are you a Muslim, Andya Primanda? Just curious. I don't know anything about Muslim opposition to evolution, that's why I'm asking. It would be interesting to learn more about it.
Yes, I am a Muslim. Traditionally Islam is not opposed to evolution. The Islamic creation story is rather vague and cannot be organized into dogma like Genesis. Some of us even claimed that all 'Western' scientific findings were stolen from earlier findings by Muslim scientists. Including evolution. However, this assertion needs to be re-examined.
However, as most people do, Muslims also find it hard to accept that they are also derived from other living things (i.e. apes). Harun Yahya (real name Adnan Oktar) is a fundamentalist Muslim living in Turkey, the most secular Islamic country. He and his allies (presumably former Turkish PM, Erbakan)tried to attract masses and power by appealing to religious fundamentalism and attacking the materialistic ideology of the government. Apparently Harun Yahya assumed that Darwinism is the ideological base of the secularism and materialism of the government, so he used creationist arguments to attack them.
Muslim activism is a multinational enterprise; as soon as Harun Yahya began his creationist campaign in Turkey, other Muslim activists follow. His books were translated into other languages and distributed to Muslims worldwide. He made great impact in Indonesia and Pakistan, I think. And he can be considered as the strongest creationist outside USA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by SalmonHunter, posted 08-24-2002 1:56 AM SalmonHunter has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 19 (16066)
08-26-2002 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by SalmonHunter
08-25-2002 5:12 AM


Indeed he is. Anyway, it seems unfair to us. Christian creationists with local intentions have had more than their fair share of opponents. While Harun Yahya and his network are left unscathed. Can you see the impact? He gave away his books for free, his website is in 7+ languages. You can see Harun Yahya misquoting Robin Crompton, Fred Spoor, etc. in Turkish, English, French, Arabic, Spanish, Italian, Malay, German, and Urdu! How's that for propaganda?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by SalmonHunter, posted 08-25-2002 5:12 AM SalmonHunter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Quetzal, posted 08-27-2002 10:08 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 19 (16162)
08-28-2002 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Quetzal
08-27-2002 10:08 AM


Strangely, before Harun Yahya gained popularity I like to think that creationism is associated with Christianity, and Muslims love to state that they're different from other faiths... I am not opinionated about theocracy or anarchy or secular government, but I really hate to see that some Muslims actively promotes pseudoscience & deceit just to attract followers for a political goal. Science does not need politics!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-30-2002 3:00 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 19 (21073)
10-30-2002 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Andya Primanda
08-28-2002 7:00 AM


bump. {currently in need or support]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Andya Primanda, posted 08-28-2002 7:00 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
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