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Author Topic:   Has anyone seen god?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 60 (159405)
11-14-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
11-14-2004 12:29 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
go post that one in the trinity thread, i'm sure it'd help a little.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 60 (159515)
11-15-2004 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
11-15-2004 12:09 AM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
haha ok nm.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 60 (159585)
11-15-2004 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Zachariah
11-15-2004 3:13 AM


what about in genesis where god repeatedly appears to the patriarchs?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Zachariah, posted 11-17-2004 11:15 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 19 of 60 (159693)
11-15-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
11-15-2004 9:56 AM


Re: But God does lie.
But Genesis 32 contradicts Hosea, it is clearly not an angel that Jacob wrestles with

there is nothing clear about genesis 32. if it's meant to be god, he's refered to as a man.

There is no mention of an angel in this encounter, and I do not see how an angel could bless anyone.

nor does it actually say he was wrestling with god in that particular instance. although the implication is there with the naming of the place. and angels can bless people like anyone else.

The Bible informs us that God does tell lies. He sends false prophest to test Israel's faithfulness, amongst other things.

quote:
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

and my favourite

quote:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

quote:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years,

If Yahweh is to be considered a god then He needs to be able to do anything, including telling lies.

agreed. i have no problem with it. but people who would hold god to morals set forth for people really get uncomfortable when you tell them that god lies.


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 Message 21 by dpardo, posted 11-15-2004 2:53 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 31 of 60 (159954)
11-15-2004 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by dpardo
11-15-2004 2:53 PM


Re: But God does lie.
We see here that the whole incident is a vision of Micaiah in which he sees a spirit come forth and declare to God that he will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab's (unGodly) prophets. Micaiah tells Ahab that his false prophets are lying to him.

according to the story, or rather the words of jehoshaphat, god is holding a meeting to try to decided how to get ahab to enter a battle that he will lose. various spirits (angels?) suggest ways to get ahab to do it, but the one that god chooses is the one that says he will lie to ahab.

the story is trying to explain reasons that not all prophesies come true, and still keep a perfect god in ultimate command of everything.

so, the question is, did god send a messenger with the knowledge that the messenger would lie?

Adam did not finish dying in that day, but he began to die.

but the text is very clear.

quote:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

one more time. in the day he eats of it, he will die. not just die, SURELY die. that day. that's what it says. i don't see how you can evade that.

930 years and one day are not the same. but don't look at me, i'm just reading the text literally.

By virtue of the fact that Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat of the tree of life, they started the process of dying and eventually did die. The "fruit" of the tree of life apparently staved off the death process

let's look at the text again.

quote:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

this is talking about a single action. god has to prevent this from ever happening. it's not saying that it's constantly eating of the tree that will keep him alive. he's saying eat of it once, and adam will live for ever.

how many times did adam need to eat of the tree of knowledge to become like god?

this means that adam was created mortal. if he had eaten of the tree of life before, he'd be a god when he ate of the tree of knowledge. (poor planning on god's part? there's nothing to indicate that adam was previously immortal at all, quite the contrary. notice the text doesn't talk of "starting to die" or "spiritual death" it says only that adam could become immortal.

the sin did not bring death into the world. this doctrine is not biblical in the slightlest, no matter what paul says.

[editted for typo]

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-15-2004 11:36 PM


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 60 (159957)
11-15-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by happy_atheist
11-15-2004 6:03 PM


If i'm understand sidelined (and the quotes offered) correctly, the argument is that if any part of god is seen then the bible contradicts itself, as several of those quotes clearly say that it is impossible for anyone to see any part of god.

it's quite obvious to anyone who's read a large segment of old testament that one of two things happened:

1. god changed somehow, towards the abstract spiritual entity and away from the physical being god. looking at him became deadly, first just his face, and then any part.

2. peoples' opinions of god changed.

i think that considering the bible was written over more than a thousand years, the second one is the safe bet, even if you don't believe a word of the bible. the evolution of the way religious people have thought of the creator has changed rather drastically.

i'd like to say that it's clear progression, but it's not. if you arrange the books chronologically in order they're supposed to take place in, god changes somewhat linearly from a physical being into a spiritual one, and then all but disappears. but i suspect that was not the order they were written in. (points for neither side)


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 60 (159989)
11-15-2004 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by dpardo
11-15-2004 11:06 PM


Re: But God does lie.
I think it is reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve did eat of the Tree of Life. The text does not say they did not and, since they were allowed to, it's likely they did.

i see no idication of that. and as well, if they already ate of the tree of life, why would god worry about them doing it again? you're arguing that effects of one tree wore off, but the sin of another didn't for 4000 years?

genesis 3 indicates god preventing a single action, to prevent them from becoming gods.

Revelation 22:1-2 seems to indicate that the Tree of Life in Heaven will yield fruit on a regular basis indicating continuous consumption by the saved.

the tree of life was in eden, which is described as having a very real location on earth. it was in mesopotamia. the tree of life in heaven that john is referring to is christ.

see, it's symbolism. communion, eating from the tree, leading twelve disciples, having twelve fruits? healing the world?

the tree of life is three different things:

1. a literal or symbolic tree in eden, whose fruit made you live forever.
2. the design upon which god made adam (see the qabala for that one)
3. a metaphor for jesus, who also gives eternal life.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 41 of 60 (159999)
11-16-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by dpardo
11-15-2004 11:37 PM


Re: But God does lie.
You are comparing apples and oranges here.

well, not exactly. we're comparing the fruit of the tree or knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. but the joke doesn't sound as funny that way.

One was sin, the other was not.

why was god so worried about the one that wasn't sin?

why does god tell the animals, and man, to "be fruitful and multiply" before eating of tree of knowledge?

why would eating of the tree of life make them immortal is they were not mortal to begin with? god didn't say that eating of the tree of knowledge would make them susceptable to death, he said it would make them dead. this didn't happen, did it?


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 60 (160836)
11-18-2004 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Zachariah
11-17-2004 11:15 PM


the text of that passage says, literally, that abraham saw the lord.

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 Message 44 by Zachariah, posted 11-17-2004 11:15 PM Zachariah has responded

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 Message 47 by Zachariah, posted 11-22-2004 11:41 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 48 of 60 (162490)
11-23-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Zachariah
11-22-2004 11:41 PM


Re: Who is the Lord?
i don't believe the book of john.

and when it says abraham saw the lord, it says LORD in caps, not Lord in lower case. the difference is between YHWH (god the father) and adonay (lord of anything, really)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Zachariah, posted 11-23-2004 1:45 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 50 of 60 (162506)
11-23-2004 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Zachariah
11-23-2004 1:45 AM


Re: Who is the Lord?
i'm well aware of the substitution. you may wish to go read this thread: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=297&p=8 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=297&p=8">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=297&p=8

יהוה and אדני are not, however, of the same meaning. יהוה or yahweh is the proper name of god. it's play on the word hawah or "to be." so the name yahweh literally means "he who exists." אדני or adonai, however, means lord and denotes some kind of soveriegnty.

however, traditionally, when you read יהוה you say "adonai" not "yahweh" and thus the two are interchanged. but they only use his title in avoidance of using the actual name. the two are not of same meaning.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-23-2004 02:23 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Zachariah, posted 11-23-2004 2:40 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 60 (162512)
11-23-2004 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Zachariah
11-23-2004 2:40 AM


Re: Who is the Lord?
no, i'm a christian.

i don't believe john because it has christ saying things that actually are blasphemy. it reads more like propaganda than actual quotations.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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