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Author Topic:   Has anyone seen god?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 60 (159338)
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


This is a topic I am putting together in order to address a discussion that came up in a talk between myself and Angel concerning the biblical contradictions present in the question she raised in How Can Trinity Believers Explain This.Hence the title.
I resonded there by posting this
Gen.12:7
"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."
Gen.18:1
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."
Gen.26:2
"And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
Gen.26:24
"And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."
Gen.32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Gen.35:1
"And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."
Gen.35:7
"And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."
Gen.35:9
"And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."
Gen.48:3
"And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."
Ex.3:16
"The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."
Ex.4:5
"That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."
Ex.6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."
Ex.24:9-11
"Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."
Ex.33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."
Ex.33:23
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
Num.14:14
"For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face."
Dt.5:4
"The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."
Dt.34:10
"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face."
Jg.13:22
"And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."
1 Kg.22:19
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
Job 42:5
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Ps.63.2
"To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."
Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."
Is.6:5
"For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Ezek.20:35
"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."
Am.7:7
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."
Am.9:1
"I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."
Hab.3:3-5
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."
The jist of the rest of our discussion centered around her disputing that these verses meant that anyone has seen the face of god.I maintain that these verses not only state that god has been seen face to face but that by being seen at all the bible contradicts itself as evidenced here.
Ex.33:20
"Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live."
Jn.1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time."
Jn.6:46
"Not that any man hath seen the Father."
1 Tim.1:17
"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever."
1 Tim.6:16
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see."
1 Jn.4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time."
I would invite not only Angel but others who wish to explain this and allow us to see how this plays out.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-14-2004 12:09 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-14-2004 12:29 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 9 by Zachariah, posted 11-15-2004 3:13 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 11 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:49 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 12 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:52 AM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 60 (159508)
11-15-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
11-14-2004 4:31 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Arachnophilia
Actually this topic started out of a discussion between Angel and I in that very thread where she rightfully told me not to continue because it was off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 11-14-2004 4:31 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 11-15-2004 12:44 AM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 16 of 60 (159635)
11-15-2004 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Angel
11-15-2004 4:52 AM


Angel
It is true that you made mention of the fact that no one has seen gods face and you do make your case with Moses{albeit weakly}However the OP in this thread has me stating this distinction.
The jist of the rest of our discussion centered around her disputing that these verses meant that anyone has seen the face of god.I maintain that these verses not only state that god has been seen face to face but that by being seen at all the bible contradicts itself as evidenced here.
I still maintain that face to face,if it is not a direct contradiction,at least should not be thus translated.The problem still remains,however,that a contradiction arises in the question which titles this topic.Has anyone seen god? This is the question that goes to the core of the bible as being an inerrent book.The writers of the book are certain of the points they make yet they dispute each other in this and many other points.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:52 AM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 5:30 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 33 of 60 (159958)
11-15-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by dpardo
11-15-2004 2:53 PM


Re: But God does lie.
dpardo
Adam did not finish dying in that day, but he began to die.
By virtue of the fact that Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat of the tree of life, they started the process of dying and eventually did die. The "fruit" of the tree of life apparently staved off the death process.
I may be reading this wrong but it appears that you are under the asssumption that Adam was going to live forever yet this cannot be since
in this verse
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
We find that he is not immortal which is also a funny thing considering that I would personaly think that to be the first fruit one would think to eat,and it also was not denied him.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by dpardo, posted 11-15-2004 2:53 PM dpardo has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 34 of 60 (159974)
11-15-2004 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Angel
11-15-2004 5:30 PM


Angel
but seeing as how it is weak, maybe you should clarify for us, exactly how you would prove and/or disprove it? Do not just state scripture, anyone can read the Bible, please, let us know your interpretations for the passages.
Well on a personal level face to face means exactly that since it desribes eye contact as a means of determining the unconscious cues that interplay between people.To communicate as we do over the internet is no where near as revealing of a personal interaction as to be face to face."
Well, I think that it is clear by any account that God has appeared, though Moses didn't see His face, he did see Him, for example
I still find that debatable and we must also bring the responsibilty to you and have you defend your position as evidenced here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen.12:7
"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."
Gen.18:1
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."
Gen.26:2
"And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
Gen.26:24
"And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."
Gen.35:1
"And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."
Gen.35:7
"And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."
Gen.35:9
"And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."
Gen.48:3
"And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."
Ex.3:16
"The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."
Ex.4:5
"That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."
Ex.6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."
Ex.24:9-11
"Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."
1 Kg.22:19
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
Job 42:5
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Ps.63.2
"To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."
Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."
Is.6:5
"For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Am.7:7
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."
Am.9:1
"I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."
Hab.3:3-5
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."
These above all refer to an appearance, so I will omit these, because they do not even come close to mentioning seeing His face.
Since they do not mention his face does this mean that such did not occur? How would we explain the following passage here
Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."
Can you see a person sitting in a throne and be unable to view his face?
But wait it would be possible if we were to view from the side and he had turned his head.However,we have yet another one here;
1 Kg.22:19 "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
In this passage we must be viewing from the front in order to view the host to right and left of the throne and therefore in full view.
And unlike with moses the scripture does not make point to state that god hid his face from view.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 5:30 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 11:12 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 35 of 60 (159977)
11-15-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Angel
11-15-2004 6:08 PM


Angel
That may be this topic, but sidelined was confused by what I had said in an earlier topic, so I was explaining to her
LOL Just a note to clear up my obviously misunderstood sex. I am male as far as I can remember though if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.Being married with children I no longer have a great deal of opportunity or energy to continue refreshing my memory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 6:08 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 11:07 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 43 of 60 (160404)
11-17-2004 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Angel
11-15-2004 11:12 PM


Angel
I omitted the long list of verses because in no way do I think that God hasn't appeared to mankind.
But this is my point Angel. The bible disagrees with this and whether you believe that the face of god or some body part was seen the fact that god was seen at all is directly in contrevention of this verse.
"No man hath seen God at any time."
This is a contradiction of one statement of the bible to another.It is also in direct contravention with your own statement.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 11:12 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Angel, posted 11-18-2004 3:40 PM sidelined has not replied

  
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