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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 189 (161271)
11-18-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PurpleYouko
11-18-2004 11:07 AM


Dark matter, and Immaterial things
Purple,
Yes, we do indeed bump into each other often thanks for your posts.
I have a question, you said:
My dilema is that I grew up in a house that was quite obviously haunted by something, in fact a group of somethings, that equally obviously were not made of matter. At least they weren't matter as I understand the term.
How is it obvious that they were not made of matter? Even if ghosts do exist what reason do you have to believe that they are not made out of matter? If they could pass through walls, and turn invisible couldn't they still be made out of something. My intetnion in starting this thread was partly to discuss what it would mean for something to exsist and at the same time not be made out of matter.
By the way, regarding dark matter it might very well exsist on earth and thoughout or galaxy. The thing with dark matter (depending on the theory) is that it does not interact with matter (or even with itself apparently). I think one would be hard pressed if they proposed a theory that stated ghosts were made out of dark matter as dark matter isn't good at making anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-18-2004 11:07 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 189 (161398)
11-19-2004 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by PurpleYouko
11-18-2004 2:21 PM


Re: Interesting question
quote:
I don't quite agree with this but I do see your point. I would say that eyewitness testimony would always be considered as better evidence than someones unfounded theory to explain away what happened, particularly when the events were witnessed by multiple people who will all swear to the same story.
Unfortunately we have reason to believe that eyewitness testimony can also be unreliable. One experiment I read about claimed that as little as 15 minutes after a fictional bank robbery, a sizable chunk of the eye witnesses confused a red shirt for green and a number of other colours were introduced.
quote:
The fact that it is possible to reproduce "Alien abductions" in a controlled laboratory experiment does not prove that no real alien abductions have taken place. It just shows another possible explanation.
True enough, in isolation. But consider - we have NO evidence of the existance of aliens. The two explanations for the experience as recounted by the "abductee" do not share the same degree of plausibility; there are multiple arguments against the space alien theory that reduce its credibility.
quote:
All I really know for sure is I grew up in one heck of a weird house. Something was totally not right about the place. I think it would be pushing it a little too far to assume that every one of my thousands of distinct memories is completely false. Some may be. Some may be exagerated. A few might be dreams even, but too much stuff happened over too long a period to dismiss it out of hand.
Maybe so. But again, I find it difficult to accept that this was so disturbing, and went on for such a long time, and yet nobo=dy thought to capture a single image or make any effort to record these events.
So let me provide an alternate - and admittedly provocative - hypothesis for these memories, a scenario in which these are false memories. If this was your childhood house, as I believe is the case, it is possible that in fact you were being sexually abused by your guardians and have constructed the "disturbing haunting" memory to suppress your actual memories. There have been such cases.
Now I hasten to say I HAVE NO REASON TO THINK THIS IS ACTUALLY THE CASE. But it is neverthless a more plausible explanation, requiring fewer assumptions, than the existance of discorporeal spirits.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 11-19-2004 05:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-18-2004 2:21 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Wounded King, posted 11-19-2004 5:50 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 20 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 5:54 AM contracycle has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 18 of 189 (161406)
11-19-2004 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by contracycle
11-19-2004 4:59 AM


Re: Interesting question
Are you suggesting that the belief in other people's experience of the same phenomena is also a false memory or that there was collusion to reinforce the false memories once they were recounted?
I think Lam's suggestion that they are false memories based on integration of a variety of real and imagined occurrences slanted towards a specific interpretation, which is something a group can do as much as an individual, is a lot more credible.
People looking for repressed memories of child abuse seem to be at least as good at generating false memories as at uncovering them.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by contracycle, posted 11-19-2004 4:59 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by contracycle, posted 11-19-2004 7:19 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 19 of 189 (161408)
11-19-2004 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu
11-17-2004 5:29 AM


How is this possible? Are they made out of something that is above matter, meaning it can decend to interact with matter but doesnt have to? If so isn't this just another form of matter?
Have you read Flatland?
What if the (hypothetical) spirit world has another dimension compared to ours? Then those in the spiritual world could observe our world without ever interacting with it by existing outside the hyperplane that is our world or interact with it by moving so that they co-incide with it.
To be honest thought, I find the whole discussion to be absurd. You're trying to see whether you can fit a non-material entity into a materialist world framework - it ain't gonna go.
Perhaps you are a materialist and beleive that there is nothing other than matter, if so you would dismiss sprits as faulty beliefs. If so what is the evolutionary advantage of such beliefs?
There is no evolutionary advantage to such beliefs. There is however a strong evolutionary advantage to pattern spotting, and causal thinking - so high, in fact, that we will spot patterns where there aren't any and invent casual links where there are none. We're not alone in this, Pidgeons do it too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-17-2004 5:29 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 6:06 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 189 (161409)
11-19-2004 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by contracycle
11-19-2004 4:59 AM


Hmm perhaps a bit innapropriate
So let me provide an alternate - and admittedly provocative - hypothesis for these memories, a scenario in which these are false memories. If this was your childhood house, as I believe is the case, it is possible that in fact you were being sexually abused by your guardians and have constructed the "disturbing haunting" memory to suppress your actual memories. There have been such cases.
Now I hasten to say I HAVE NO REASON TO THINK THIS IS ACTUALLY THE CASE.
Umm, wouldn't an even more plausable explination than repressed memories of sexual abuse (a pretty serious and disturbing claim), be that he was a CHILD when he had these memories? When I was a child I beleved all sorts of crazy things, and was sure I saw monsters ghosts, aliens in my closet etc.
I also beleved I had psycic powers and to this day can remember when some of my "too unbelevably precice for it to be a coincednce" predictions came true. I was a KID I was having flights of fancy. I would have sworn by these beliefs and the fact that they I have memories of unbelevable events does not mean that these events occored in the way I thought they did.
Aannnny way. We still haven't adressed how it could be possible for somthing to exsist and not be physical. We also have not discussed why it is evolutionraly advantagious to believe in spirits.
If it is not advantagious then why did virtualy every culture (until very recently) belive in immaterial spirits?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by contracycle, posted 11-19-2004 4:59 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Wounded King, posted 11-19-2004 6:21 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied
 Message 28 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 9:44 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 189 (161411)
11-19-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Jack
11-19-2004 5:51 AM


I can't even imagine how it would work
Have you read Flatland?
When I was little I had it read to me as a bedtime story but that was a long time ago. Perhaps it's time for me to read it as an adult.
What if the (hypothetical) spirit world has another dimension compared to ours? Then those in the spiritual world could observe our world without ever interacting with it by existing outside the hyperplane that is our world or interact with it by moving so that they co-incide with it.
Thats possible, it's also possble that they could be made out of something like dark matter. But in both cases then the extra planar, or dark matter, "spirits" would still be made out of SOMETHING right?
You're trying to see whether you can fit a non-material entity into a materialist world framework - it ain't gonna go.
You're, of course right that sprits are going to have a hard time finding a place in my materialistic worldveiw. But how could something that isn't made out of anything exsist in ANY worldveiw? I can imagine extradimentional angels and demons. I can imagine more mundane spirits that are invisible and, at times, intangible but they still are made out of SOMETHING.
Even if it's impossible or unlikely that such things exsist, is it possible to even imagine something that exsists, and at the same time has no components, without running into logical inconsistancys?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dr Jack, posted 11-19-2004 5:51 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Jack, posted 11-19-2004 6:13 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 22 of 189 (161412)
11-19-2004 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 6:06 AM


Re: I can't even imagine how it would work
You're, of course right that sprits are going to have a hard time finding a place in my materialistic worldveiw. But how could something that isn't made out of anything exsist in ANY worldveiw?
Sure, they're made out of something: "Non-extended matter" to use a Descartism, or "spirit-stuff" perhaps more colloquailly. The properties of non-extended matter are not known excepting that they have the property that they are variabley interactive with extended matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 6:06 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 6:28 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 189 (161417)
11-19-2004 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 5:54 AM


Re: Hmm perhaps a bit innapropriate
If these things happened over a period of 25 years (see post 11) then cannot all simply be ascribed to PY being a child, although experiences or artificial memories constructed in childhood could colour his late interpretation of events, possibly leading him to ascribe them to his immaterial companions rather than seeking alternative explanations.
As to the the question of evolutionary advantage, I would suggest that either you look into explanations such as were previously put forward as to the highly adapted systems for pattern recognition that can give rise to a perception of patterns where none exist. Whatever predisoposes humans to belief in spirits (if it is anything other than a cultural 'memetic' relict) may well be a side effect or 'spandrel' if you will of other areas of the human brain that have evolved for other evolutionarily advantageuous traits.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 5:54 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 189 (161419)
11-19-2004 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Jack
11-19-2004 6:13 AM


Well ok.
Sigh, I guess I won't get to hear how things can be made out of nothing, what a shame.
In a Stanislav Lem short story, a robotic story teller suggests that there are "different kinds of nothing" the king is displeased and orders the story teller to be rapidly dissasembeled. He does not survive the procedure, suggesting that there is indeed, only one kind of nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Jack, posted 11-19-2004 6:13 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 189 (161430)
11-19-2004 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Wounded King
11-19-2004 5:50 AM


Re: Interesting question
quote:
Are you suggesting that the belief in other people's experience of the same phenomena is also a false memory or that there was collusion to reinforce the false memories once they were recounted?
...
People looking for repressed memories of child abuse seem to be at least as good at generating false memories as at uncovering them.
As to the reinforcement, I have no idea - I know nothing about this persons actual life experience or circumstances. The point was not that this is necessarily what happened - the point is that it is more plausible than immaterial spirits.
And yes, I could easily imagine an abusive adult reinforcing such a perception on the part of an impresisonable child.
I fully agree that false memory of child abuse can also occur, without doubt. I make no claims whatsoever that this actually happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Wounded King, posted 11-19-2004 5:50 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 9:30 AM contracycle has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 26 of 189 (161444)
11-19-2004 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 6:02 PM


Re: Interesting question
Lam
quote:
But how are you suppose to know if the "theory" is valid or not unless you've illuminated every possibility that could potentially make the thoery invalid? The only way for you to be able to illuminate those possibilities is to be skeptical of the theory itself and seek out and investigate those possibilities.
It wasn't my point that you shouldn't try every known test in order to find alternative explanations. Just that you have to be willing to accept whatever result come out of those tests whether it agrees with your preconceptions and beleifs or not. If the honest answers back up your hunch that anything supernatural is a load of old tosh then so be it.
The only closed-mindedness would be that you can't just run a [i]few[/] of the hundreds of possible tests, find that they could point to other possible explanations and then just state catagorically that the supernatural doesn't exist. Some people will always see what they want to see in the experimental outcome of whatever they are testing. You just have to go into these tests with a complete lack of bias and that is very difficult to do. Science only works to its best effect in the total absense of preconceptions.
So Yes, do do have to be skeptical but you also have to be willing to allow the hypothesis to be proved right. I also agree that any theory worth a damn has to be able to stand up to scrutiny provided that scrutiny is applied in a completely unbiased manner.
PY

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 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 6:02 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 27 of 189 (161449)
11-19-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by contracycle
11-19-2004 7:19 AM


Re: Interesting question
quote:
As to the reinforcement, I have no idea - I know nothing about this persons actual life experience or circumstances. The point was not that this is necessarily what happened - the point is that it is more plausible than immaterial spirits.
You're right. You don't. Neither does anybody else except those who were there.
I certainly don't take offence at your hypothesis as that was just what it was, a hypothetical possible alternative that may or may not explain what happened. I can assure you that this isn't the case but your Freudian theory would expect that response anyway so it is kind of pointless to do so.
The point I totally disagree with is that this is a more plausible scenario that the possibility that something hitherto unknown (or at least not understood) by science, actually happened. This is the kind of negative bias that I have refered to previously.
The best you can really say, given the evidence (or lack thereof) for either proposed scenario, is that both arguments are equally valid until proved one way or the other. And since that is pretty much impossible in this particualar case due to the lack of photos, videos, tape recordings or phsychiatric evaluations, we would have to perform experiments on currently happening phenomenon to explain them one way or the other.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by contracycle, posted 11-19-2004 7:19 AM contracycle has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 28 of 189 (161453)
11-19-2004 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 5:54 AM


Re: Hmm perhaps a bit innapropriate
Dormamu
you said
quote:
Umm, wouldn't an even more plausable explination than repressed memories of sexual abuse (a pretty serious and disturbing claim), be that he was a CHILD when he had these memories? When I was a child I beleved all sorts of crazy things, and was sure I saw monsters ghosts, aliens in my closet etc.
Just to clear up a point and to add a little background. I lived in this house until I was 25. Weird stuff happened right up until I left. Stuff like furniture re-arranging itself while I (and everyone else) was out of the room, stuff disappearing and then re-appearing weeks later in exactly the same spot. All kinds of stuff.
After I moved out to get married, my parents lived there for another 3 or 4 years before they sold up and moved out to. Over the next 3 years the house changed hands more than 10 times. On each occasion the family moved out after less than a month. (this can be backed up by electoral roles and land registry records etc.) Read what you like into that. Eventually the place was bulldozed and a brand new house built on the site. There have been no more unexplained occurences that I am aware of since then.
I would also like to point out that the goings on just seemed "normal" to me as I had never known anything else so I was never really scared or anything while living there. It wasn't traumatic in the least.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 5:54 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 29 of 189 (161454)
11-19-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by 1.61803
11-18-2004 2:29 PM


Re: Things that go bump...
Hi 1.61803
I have read your comments on a lot of other threads.
quote:
In order for 'something to have thoughts, it must first think. Thinking is a function of a brain. So it is not possible to have something that has "thoughts" if it is immaterial.
Why is this the case?
Can you not even see the possibility that some form of pure inteligence could exist based on some perfectly logical but as yet unknown mechanism.
As many people have said, what we don't know about the universe is MUCH greater than what we do know. With that in mind how can you just dismiss something as being impossible when we clearly don't know all the facts yet?
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 11-18-2004 2:29 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by 1.61803, posted 11-19-2004 12:35 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 30 of 189 (161485)
11-19-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by PurpleYouko
11-19-2004 9:52 AM


Re: Things that go bump...
Hi Purple Youko,
Purple Youko writes:
Why is this the case?
Because by definition "thoughts" are the product of thinking. Thinking is a function of the brain. The brain consist of organic material. If there is something in the universe that can think without a brain then that would fly in the face of all known science and knowlege. There is nothing known that would lead science to believe that intelligence exist in a non-material form. If there was then some evidence would be available. But alas all I have ever heard as a form of evidence is heresay, fraud, nonbias eyewitnesses. You would think that by the year 2004 someone would be able to produce a good clean verifiable nonbias photo, or audio, or some measurable form of evidence. NONE exist. If there is such evidence then I would be more than happy to investigate it. As would many other skeptics.
Primitive man use to throw rocks at the moon. Cats were exterminated in the Dark Ages in Europe because of superstition. This in turn led to an increase in rats/fleas, which caused the Black Plauge. Thousands killed and burned at the stake for being accused of witchcraft. Hysteria and ignorance perpetuated and still perpetuates stupidity in the name of superstition. We now know the moon is not some mysterous god. We know cats are not familiars and evil. No one burns witches anymore.
Spiritual existance is important for man to believe in because man bases much of his religious beliefs in such. To deny the existance of ghost and spirits is to deny the possibility of life after death. And man so much wants to believe that his existance and his soul will trancend his human mortality.
Because to think otherwise is uncomfortable. To think that one simply ceases to exist post death is far to bleak. Much better to believe in the metaphysical. Humans are the only creatures on Earth that sit around worrying about such things as why he exist, and what will happen when he dies. I tend to agree with Neitzche humans are nuerotic apes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 9:52 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 1:05 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 34 by dpardo, posted 11-19-2004 2:23 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
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