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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 46 of 189 (161625)
11-19-2004 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by PurpleYouko
11-19-2004 5:37 PM


Re: Things that go bump...or BANG... or EEEK!!
Maybe an astroid will obliterate the Earth and render man, and spirits moot.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 5:37 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 11:22 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 47 of 189 (161682)
11-19-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by 1.61803
11-19-2004 8:31 PM


Re: Things that go bump...or BANG... or EEEK!!
quote:
Maybe an astroid will obliterate the Earth and render man, and spirits moot.
Perhaps it will at that. Who knows?
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by 1.61803, posted 11-19-2004 8:31 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 48 of 189 (161719)
11-20-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
11-19-2004 4:35 PM


I say, it was a metal chair, in a lighthouse with enormous electric power use. Could magnetic fields have moved the chair? I don't know.
Ooo.. I'm studying magnetism in physics right now and I can assure you that this is not an explanation... unless of course you had something like 100,000 Amps of current flowing into that light house (equivalent to the massive electric arcs they use to melt steel in steel mills). I would guess that a light house draws no more than 200 Amps. And even then these massive electrical cables would have to be within a few feet of the chair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 11-19-2004 4:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 1:41 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 55 by lfen, posted 11-20-2004 4:32 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 49 of 189 (161723)
11-20-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 1:08 AM


unless of course you had something like 100,000 Amps of current flowing into that light house (equivalent to the massive electric arcs they use to melt steel in steel mills).
Or, say, the massive arcs created by the carbon-arc lamps used in lighthouses?
At the very least, the lighthouse has a motor to rotate the reflector around the lamp. Maybe it generates enough magentism?
Hell, I don't know. I'm just kicking around stuff that, as far as I can tell, the so-called "paranormal researchers" didn't even consider. I do appreciate your input though. Very (if you'll pardon the pun) illuminating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 1:08 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 50 of 189 (161724)
11-20-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by PurpleYouko
11-19-2004 5:37 PM


Re: Things that go bump...or BANG... or EEEK!!
Hi Purple, I think this whole discussion is very interesting.
One of my best friends here at school has told me some stories about his experiences with the supernatural. He says that for three years God gave him the gift of discerning the spirits and was able to see angels and demons as they interacted with us. I also have spoken with a few other Christians who have had the gift of discerning the spirits and they described to me what they saw. They described the spirits as being more real than the physical universe we understand.
If I were to guess, I would say that this universe is only a hologram with many more dimensions unknown to us that create something more real than what we presently think of as solid matter.
I have no problem believing that many sightings of these beings are genuine. Who's to say that such things are not possible, and on what basis? And if these beings can interact with our physical environment as you described, who's to say that they cannot interact with our physical brains and produce some of the mental illnesses that some use as an alternate explanation?
I don't think we should ever overestimate our understanding simply because we can fairly accurately describe the major laws that govern the known universe.
I just want someone who actually knows the answer to tell it to me. I think I am going to have a loooonng wait.
I would really like to "know" the answer as well, but I cannot, so I believe. For a while I thought that believing was a weaker position than knowing, but then I realized that all knowing is believing. If we are to know anything at all we must have faith that there exists something outside ourselves. If we believe everything, we are a fool. If we believe nothing, we cannot function in this world.
Where do we draw the line? Many here would say, we should only accept as real what science can prove or fairly accurately describe, but there is no good reason why we can't draw the line just a little bit further to include the many experiences like that of yourself and others as real. Just because science can't entirely explain it or cannot yet explain it, does not mean it is not real.
I'm glad you are objective in your search for understanding regarding these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 5:37 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 2:04 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 189 (161725)
11-20-2004 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 1:51 AM


And if these beings can interact with our physical environment as you described, who's to say that they cannot interact with our physical brains and produce some of the mental illnesses that some use as an alternate explanation?
Well, I mean, look. We know how eyes work. Light comes in and causes chemical reactions in the cells of the retina.
So how does this "spirit sight" work, exactly? How do you see something that light won't bounce off? I bet you never even thought to ask that question.
And that's why this whole endeavor is so dubious. Not only have you posited ghosts and angels and demons who interact with the world, you have a commensurate unknown mechanism through which they do that. In addition you have the unknown mechanism of an unknown sense that allows some people to percieve these transient entities, and an unknown pathway by which that sensory information enters the brain.
There's a whole lot of unknown, unobserved secondary effects to this proposition. On the other hand, the hypothesis that your friends either hallucinated it or are lying about it requires absolutely no hitherto-unknown mechanisms or entities. Rather, these explanations rely only on phenomena and motivations that we already know exist - the capacity of imagination to fool memory, the capacity of humans to lie about experiences to fit in with their peers, the capacity of humans to repeat a lie so often that they remember it as the truth. (I'm ashamed to say that there are certain aspects of my life where I'm not sure what really happened, and what only happened in the lie I told to cover it up. So I know this can happen.)
I'm sorry. I just don't see your supernatural explanations as any more credible than fantasy. It's simply much more likely that your friends did not really have the experiences you say they said they had.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 1:51 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by 1.61803, posted 11-20-2004 12:05 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 53 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 2:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 52 of 189 (161789)
11-20-2004 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
11-20-2004 2:04 AM


Crashfrog writes:
I just dont see your supernatural explanations as anymore crediable than fatansy.
Nor do I. The evidence does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 2:04 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 53 of 189 (161828)
11-20-2004 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
11-20-2004 2:04 AM


Thanks for your reply.
So how does this "spirit sight" work, exactly? How do you see something that light won't bounce off? I bet you never even thought to ask that question.
Of course I've thought to ask this question. I am extremely curious about these things. I don't know about Purple's experiences, but Micah said that the things he saw couldn't be completely described as a 'visual' thing, but the best way to describe it in terms that people can understand is by giving a visual description. He said that these things were more solid and more real than we are, but yet he could see through them. He said that they cast shadows even though some of them emitted a kind of 'light'.
Perhaps these beings are of a higher dimension and can choose when to show themselves in the 3 dimensions we comprehend. Perhaps, a part of us is actually multidimensional, but because it is bound in our 3-D bodies we cannot usually 'see' everything; so when someone like Micah has the gift of discerning spirits the boundries of the body are removed so that he can fully see all the dimensions in which we are living.
And that's why this whole endeavor is so dubious. Not only have you posited ghosts and angels and demons who interact with the world, you have a commensurate unknown mechanism through which they do that. In addition you have the unknown mechanism of an unknown sense that allows some people to percieve these transient entities, and an unknown pathway by which that sensory information enters the brain.
This "endeavor" is dubious because we do not know HOW it works? Well, 200 hundred years ago, you would have said the same thing about germ theory of disease or the big bang theory or QM theory.
Just because we don't know how something works, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Of course I know you say, "We DO know how it works: they're all lying or deceived by their own brains." And this is an alternative hypothesis, but we cannot be sure that this is the case. And in Purple's case where Purple and family and friends and guests witnessed supernatural activities for over 25 years AND the house changed hands 10 times in 3 years after they left, this hypothesis seems unacceptable.
It's simply much more likely that your friends did not really have the experiences you say they said they had.
How can you judge plausibility or probability in these situations? You are showing a bias by automatically rejecting one hypothesis and accepting the other. You cannot dogmatically state that every supernatural experience is not real simply because you want everything to fit in the neat little box of current scientific understanding.
And that raises a question in my mind. How exactly would you prove scientifically that these beings are real?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 2:04 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 3:48 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 11-21-2004 3:40 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 189 (161879)
11-20-2004 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 2:04 PM


Well, 200 hundred years ago, you would have said the same thing about germ theory of disease or the big bang theory or QM theory.
Yes. Until we had explanations of the mechanisms - observations of germs, expanding space, and quantum particles - those would have been dubious theories.
You can't seem to tell the difference between me saying that all this ghost/angel/demon stuff is outright wrong, and me saying that we don't know if it's right or not. There's a scientific process to be followed, one that ensures that theories develop not from speculation or (worse) superstition, but from verifiable observation. What makes this whole business so dubious is that nobody seems to be able to develop a theory of ghosts without violating that process. If the only way to believe in ghosts is to cheat your reason, well, that doesn't give me much confidence in your ideas about the supernatural.
You cannot dogmatically state that every supernatural experience is not real simply because you want everything to fit in the neat little box of current scientific understanding.
As of yet, there never has been a supernatural experience. We've always been able to explain these phenomena with entirely natural means. Now, there's plenty of stuff we haven't explained yet, but jumping to conclusions that require rewriting everything we know about the universe and reality, based on the testimony of some kids, isn't a reasonable position to take.
How exactly would you prove scientifically that these beings are real?
Through verifiable observation. The same way I could prove you were real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 2:04 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 5:51 PM crashfrog has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 55 of 189 (161893)
11-20-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 1:08 AM


I'd be interested in knowing how level the floor was and how much vibrating the lighthouse did say by wave action on rocks being transmitted to it? Or the machinery for the light rotating.
Professional magicians such as the Amazing Randi are often better at debunking these things than scientist on the basis of set a thief to catch a thief. Stage magicians have great experience with trick and deceptions and methods not ordinarily used. Uri Geller easily fooled scientist who were observing him but he couldn't bring his stuff off when Randi was in charge. This story just lacks too many details to used to establish anything.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 1:08 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 5:32 PM lfen has not replied
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 56 of 189 (161900)
11-20-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by lfen
11-20-2004 4:32 PM


I would guess that any TV show that goes out to catch glimpses of supernatural phenomena is highly suspect since they are trying to get viewers rather than the truth. I wouldn't use this as evidence to establish anything either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by lfen, posted 11-20-2004 4:32 PM lfen has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 57 of 189 (161911)
11-20-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
11-20-2004 3:48 PM


You can't seem to tell the difference between me saying that all this ghost/angel/demon stuff is outright wrong, and me saying that we don't know if it's right or not.
So you are willing to admit that you don't KNOW whether or not ghosts/angels/demons exist nor are you able to determine which is more likely?
If so, we have nothing left to argue.
As of yet, there never has been a supernatural experience.
Gah! There you go dogmatically stating the negative. I guess we'll have to continue arguing.
If the only way to believe in ghosts is to cheat your reason, well, that doesn't give me much confidence in your ideas about the supernatural.
Throwing ALL bias aside and given the two alternative hypotheses that either Purple and her family and friends and the subsequent owners of the house were imagining things for over 25 years or Purple saw genuine supernatural beings, which one seems more reasonable? (I'm excluding the possibility that Purple is knowlingly lying to all of us)
We've always been able to explain these phenomena with entirely natural means.
You've always been able to come up with alternative hypotheses, but you do not KNOW whether or not it is true.
Through verifiable observation. The same way I could prove you were real.
And if you came here to see me, how would you know that you aren't imagining me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 3:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2004 6:02 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 60 by lfen, posted 11-20-2004 8:18 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 189 (161913)
11-20-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 5:51 PM


So you are willing to admit that you don't KNOW whether or not ghosts/angels/demons exist nor are you able to determine which is more likely?
But I can determine which is more likely; by examining the methodology used to arrive at each conclusion. You arrived at your conclusion by taking superstition at face value. That process has never been accurate. On the other hand, everything we know about the world, we know via the scientific method.
Throwing ALL bias aside and given the two alternative hypotheses that either Purple and her family and friends and the subsequent owners of the house were imagining things for over 25 years or Purple saw genuine supernatural beings, which one seems more reasonable?
The first, obviously.
And if you came here to see me, how would you know that you aren't imagining me?
By having my observation verified by anybody that wanted to look. On the other hand, I and many, many others have asked to see ghosts, but have not been able to. There are no verifiable observations of the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 5:51 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 10:39 PM crashfrog has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 189 (161923)
11-20-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by lfen
11-20-2004 4:32 PM


On Magicians
I used to be a magician and would preform at birthday parties and such.
After my shows some parent would inevitably come up to me with some explaination of how a praticular trick worked. In general these explanations were TERRIBLE, according to them I had all kinds of motors, magnets, chemicals that would have to have been extremely dangerous to have around kids etc.
Now, just becase these people were not able to come up with a good explination of how I did the trick, does that mean that I had real magic powers? Of course not!
This was no evedence that magic exsisted only that people could be deceved.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 60 of 189 (161952)
11-20-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Hangdawg13
11-20-2004 5:51 PM


Throwing ALL bias aside and given the two alternative hypotheses that either Purple and her family and friends and the subsequent owners of the house were imagining things for over 25 years or Purple saw genuine supernatural beings, which one seems more reasonable? (I'm excluding the possibility that Purple is knowlingly lying to all of us)
Dawg,
You haven't made an exhaustive list here. You can't imitate Sherlock Holmes and say that you've eliminated the impossible so the improbable that remains must be true. (I can't remember how Doyle wrote it..sigh).
Okay I'll offer at least a third hypothesis. Something was going on that is unexplained to this date. It's like people asking me if I believe in UFOs. Hell Yes I believe in UFOs. That is I believe that people see flying objects that have for one reason or another remained to this date unidentified. I don't believe that to date anyone has seen an extraterrestial spacecraft. But if they did see a flying saucer from outer space it's no longer a UFO cause they went and identified it!
So something inexplicable and mysterious happens how would you feel? A little twilight zoney perhaps. You might become more sensitive to sounds, or "atmosphere". How can you explore this? Could be difficult.
Every been alone on a dark and storming night while still young and imaginative? There can be very scary sounds. Or awakened by some odd sound and then laid awake trying to figure it out?
I had an odd sound that came and went at night. I wondered if there was a rat or squirrel nesting in the ceiling. It sounded like nuts being rolled around on each other over my head. It turned out the sound was in the wall coming from a cat downstairs playing with venetian blinds. An odd accoustical property of an old house made it sound like it was right over my head.
I'm going to assume based on my experience and other accounts that the most likely explanation is something unexpected and unexplained happened in a setting that did trigger imagination. We have to understand that this is a feature of the human brain. It can be perceptually fooled. That is not a moral failing on our part. Our sensory systems were selected by survival not by the accuracy of scientific calibration. People like horses get spooked.
Now I have a relative who believes horses and young children see some sort of beings that we don't. They believe their child came home from the county fair accompanied by some invisible being they could see and talk to. After awhile the behaviour stopped and they presumed the "being" went away. You can guess that though I believe children have invisible playmate I think they are firmly imaginary. My explanation goes the child might have seen something that caught their attention at the fair and continued to play with it in their imagination until moving on to other interests. I don't know.
But what kinds of significant occurances in the real world can be attributed to supernatural beings. I don't mean feelings we have but events like power failures, something blowing up, fires, wine going bad, blood coming out of the faucet instead of water, dead people climbing out of graves to satisfy a sudden craving for a snack of fresh brains of the living?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 5:51 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-20-2004 11:05 PM lfen has replied

  
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