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Author Topic:   Evolutionist view of creationism HELP ME
Penders
Unregistered


Message 1 of 5 (14141)
07-25-2002 9:48 AM


Hello there,
I am writing a thesis on the evolution-creationsm debate. For this thesis i am looking for a convinced, educated evolutionist living in the US, to answer the following questions.

1. What is the worth of the creationist theory (bible - genesis) to you?
2. How do you view the modern day tendency towards accepting evolution as a fact?
3. What was the key point in your life, that made you choose for the evolutionist point of view? (Or did you never even consider creationism?)
4. How do you cope with the fact that evolutionary biology and other sciences have not (yet) provided the answer for the ultimate origin (of mass / of life / of consiousness)?
5. Do you accept the teaching of the creationist point of view in schools?
6. Feel free to comment on any critical subjects.

Thank you very much,

CATHOLIC University of Nijmegen
Department of EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY

As you can see, i am surrounded by both aspects of the discussion and will give an equal and honost attention to both of them. I do not try to prove anything, I am just making an inventory about views throughtout the world.

Please email the answer to bpenders@sci.kun.nl


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by mark24, posted 07-25-2002 10:08 AM You have not yet responded
 Message 3 by axial soliton, posted 08-29-2002 4:22 AM You have not yet responded
 Message 5 by Andya Primanda, posted 08-30-2002 3:54 AM You have not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3300 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 2 of 5 (14143)
07-25-2002 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Penders
07-25-2002 9:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Penders:
Hello there,
I am writing a thesis on the evolution-creationsm debate. For this thesis i am looking for a convinced, educated evolutionist living in the US, to answer the following questions.

quote:
Originally posted by Penders:

1. What is the worth of the creationist theory (bible - genesis) to you?

Nothing. It is based on an evidentially unsupported claim.

quote:
Originally posted by Penders:

2. How do you view the modern day tendency towards accepting evolution as a fact?

“Fact” as in scientific fact. Where the overwhelming evidence points to evolution, where it is no longer unreasonable to not accept the theory. All science is tentative, there is no 100% absolute fact in science.

So, if the evidence points so strongly supports a theory, I have no problem with evolution being accepted as a scientific fact.

quote:
Originally posted by Penders:

3. What was the key point in your life, that made you choose for the evolutionist point of view? (Or did you never even consider creationism?)

It probably wasn’t so much as accepting evolution, as rejecting Christianity as an explanation for the world around me. Once I had made this jump, it was a matter of finding natural explanations for observed phenomena (even if I never realised it as such, at that time). The scientific method allows for observable evidence supporting hypthesis’ & theories, the more evidence that supports a theory, the more I will support that theory. The opposite is allowing as-much-imagination-as-you-like to be an explanation, I realised this wasn’t a valid method of ascertaining anything, at about 11 or 12.

The word “evolutionist” is a bit of a misnomer. Natural materialist would better describe me, & I imagine many others.

quote:
Originally posted by Penders:

4. How do you cope with the fact that evolutionary biology and other sciences have not (yet) provided the answer for the ultimate origin (of mass / of life / of consiousness)?

Much like I cope with any other phenomena that remains unexplained. It is simply unexplained. Because we don’t understand the cause of gravity doesn’t lead me to reject anything, just not to accept any particular theory at any one time.

quote:
Originally posted by Penders:

5. Do you accept the teaching of the creationist point of view in schools?

No

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Penders, posted 07-25-2002 9:48 AM Penders has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by nos482, posted 08-29-2002 3:47 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 5 (16215)
08-29-2002 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Penders
07-25-2002 9:48 AM


quote:
1. What is the worth of the creationist theory (bible - genesis) to you?

There may be some merit to the text as a myth. Archeologists and anthropologists have discovered that some myths are based on actual places or events. Maybe Troy was the first example. I believe there is on-going research to find some of the towns mentioned in the Old Testament. Since the Genesis text of the bible is so sparse compared to actual record of discovery, it may be more useful to compare creation myths among pre-history populations to discover migratory paths.

quote:
2. How do you view the modern day tendency towards accepting evolution as a fact?

Actually the world around us is measured in shades of gray, meaning there is no black or white, absolute fact or total fiction. Evolution is an ever more compelling explanation of what we can see, touch, and understand. The older I get, the more complete and fulfilling its picture.

quote:
3. What was the key point in your life, that made you choose for the evolutionist point of view? (Or did you never even consider creationism?)

I was the kid who took an enduring interest in how things worked around me. How things work has always fascinated me. For me, there were no preconceived notions; I started with a blank slate and assembled a world-view based on what there was to discover around me. So, there was no such point. It simply was ever more relevant that the facts and phenomena I discovered integrated to evolution. They did before. They do so now so fast it is hard to keep track. Personally, I have been unable to discover a second phenomenon that could explain what what can be measured better than generalized evolution.

quote:
4. How do you cope with the fact that evolutionary biology and other sciences have not (yet) provided the answer for the ultimate origin (of mass / of life / of consiousness)?

"Cope" is the wrong word. The best way to describe my approach is that I am too busy adapting to the new discoveries across science, being utterly amazed at what people can do or find out, and connecting the dots as I envision new relationships. This is very positive, gregarious, and uplifting. Over my lifetime, the trend of scientific discovery has continuously accelerated. That in itself is amazing. I am old enough to now understand that science is filling in the everyday gaps across the board in every catagory. Science allows humanity to grow and improve, so that there are new everyday questions. They will be addressed in time. Science will be the key to human evolutionary success from now on.

quote:
5. Do you accept the teaching of the creationist point of view in schools?

Most emphatically not. My kids are grown, but learning creationism would not help them understand the world around them. For them to survive and prosper, they need to understand the world around them. However, learning creation myths in general would be elucidating.

quote:
6. Feel free to comment on any critical subjects.

There are no critical subjects relevant to the EVC discussion because there are no critical creationist arguments. None from the group argue from the Biblical perspective. Importantly, they do not seem to consider the biblical text authoritative. This is understandable because the biblical text is so sparse compared to the actual record. So, all of the creationists in this open forum try to do what scientists do, pick apart scientific scenarios and argumnets. Were they true to their faith, they would not use the scientific approach to try to disprove scientific principles. They would research their body of literature, the Bible, and argue from it.

Wait, I just thought of something. Components of Christianity exhibit a perverse need to compete with technology. In Christian regions in the past, science was suppressed and religion kept control of knowledge from lay people. Those religious people had no tools to protect those they controlled from plagues and other natural phenomena. Science is the answer. Religion should evolve an understanding of why it is irrelevant to the technology business. What we all need from religion is a strong philosophical foundation. Morality, integrity, and community are universal fundamentals we must share that do not require mystical beings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Penders, posted 07-25-2002 9:48 AM Penders has not yet responded

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 5 (16255)
08-29-2002 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by mark24
07-25-2002 10:08 AM


quote:
mark24

“Fact” as in scientific fact. Where the overwhelming evidence points to evolution, where it is no longer unreasonable to not accept the theory. All science is tentative, there is no 100% absolute fact in science.

So, if the evidence points so strongly supports a theory, I have no problem with evolution being accepted as a scientific fact.


This also goes for gravity as well. It is still a theory because we know that it exists and it can be easily demostrated, but we still don't know exactly how, or why, it works. Now, Creationists always go on that since evolution is "just a theory" that their religious beliefs should be accepted as well on equal terms. So, since gravity is "Just a theory" as well are they going to dismiss it now and when they jump up are they going to keep on going? They don't understand exactly what a scientific theory is.

[This message has been edited by nos482, 08-29-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by mark24, posted 07-25-2002 10:08 AM mark24 has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 5 (16288)
08-30-2002 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Penders
07-25-2002 9:48 AM


Mr. Penders, if you had finished the thesis, would you be kind enough to share it with us here?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Penders, posted 07-25-2002 9:48 AM Penders has not yet responded

  
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