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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 219 (162169)
11-21-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by purpledawn
11-21-2004 7:14 PM


A matter of opinion and belief
ramoss writes:

May I also request that when pointing out these alleged offers from God, that the Tankah is referenced, not Christian scriptures. After all, the Jews do not accept Christian scriptures as being from God, but only written by man.

I am not talking only to Jews here, so I will not limit my references to the Tanach.
We could examine the prophecies concerning the Messiah, but that would involve a new thread. My references are all N.T. and all written by men. As to the inspiration or lack thereof, THAT is a matter of ones personal belief. Start by reading this webpage. I found it and see that their information is most of what I have been taught concerning the revelation of the mystery.
http://home.flash.net/~saints/mystery.htm

This is where Paul first mentions the switch:
NIV writes:

Acts 28:23-28
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
"'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"


Paul was thought of as a misguided Jew, as was Jesus, by many Jews. The Christian answer is that these Jews were unwilling to see the Messiah for who He is. Again, a matter of opinion and belief.
NIV writes:

Rom 11:7-21
What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.


Even Jesus knew that He initially was to come for the Jews.
Matt 15:21-28=Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Again, I must emphasize: The Jews individually each had a chance to accept the Messiah, and, many did. As a nation, however, they were cut off after they rejected, as a nation, the Messiah.

Dispensational theology sees the Bible as encompassing different timeframes, or dispensations:

Currently, we are in the Church Age...#6. The book of Revelation is written for the Jews, #7. This belief presumes a pre trib rapture.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-21-2004 11:01 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by purpledawn, posted 11-21-2004 7:14 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 11-22-2004 11:03 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 219 (162307)
11-22-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
11-22-2004 4:20 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Aracnophilia writes:

the immanuel prophesy was indeed messianic, but did jesus liberate israel from the assyrians? no, he was several hundred years after that. the prophesy is not talking about him.

The type of liberation that Jesus did is a spiritual liberation. The Jewish people were looking for a natural concrete liberation from the oppression on earth, rather than a spiritual liberation from the unclean spirits which bound humanity since the Fall.
Arachnophilia writes:

jesus was not a king, he never sat on a throne.

A matter of belief. Jesus sits on a throne today and always.
Matt 21:1
The explicit instructions of Jesus regarding the ass and colt indicate the significance of the event. On other occassions Jesus had usually walked, and here the distance was not more than two miles. 4,5. Fulfillment of Zech 9:9 was the motivation for this act, although the disciples were unaware of it before the Resurrection (John 12:16). Jews generally regarded the passage as Messianic (Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus, II, 736). 6-8. Both animals were brought (the ass being needed to quiet the previously unridden colt), but all the Evangelists testify that Jesus rode the colt. Some from the multitude spread their garments on the path as a mark of homage to him whom they now acclaimed as King (2 Kings 9:13). Others strewed palm fronds in the way (John 12:13). The ass was a lowly beast, and no Jewish king since Solomon had ridden upon one officially. But meekness and lowliness were earmarks of Messiah predicted by Zechariah, and now fulfilled
(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)
Do you as a serious student of the Bible disagree with Wycliffe?

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 219 (162314)
11-22-2004 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 7:21 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
purpledawn writes:

Show me what Israel was seeking and did not obtain.

Rom 11:7-10
What was it that Israel strove for which she did not obtain? Paul has already answered this in Rom 9:32 and 10:3. Israel strove for righteousness. But instead of submitting to the righteousness of God, she sought to establish her own.
--------------------
Jesus did come from the lineage of David. Simon Greenleaf was one of the founders of the Harvard Law School. He wrote the famous three volume set, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, still considered as one of the best authoritative sources on the subject. Greenleaf was once a skeptic concerning Biblical evidence of the Resurrection and using his own methodologies, concluded the evidence as overwhelming. Need we dismiss a Harvard professor so lightly?

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 Message 22 by lfen, posted 11-22-2004 11:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded
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 Message 66 by ramoss, posted 11-23-2004 6:51 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 219 (162341)
11-22-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by lfen
11-22-2004 11:57 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Ifen writes:

A court of law is rather different from a peer review by experts in one's field.

So what field are you speaking of, Ifen? There is much documentation from educated professionals regarding the accuracy and meaning of scripture. I keep hearing refutations, yet I see no documented evidence by these "experts" whom you mention.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 11-22-2004 12:33 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 219 (162402)
11-22-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 3:52 PM


Re: Righteousness
You still haven't shown me what scripture from the OT Paul used to support his Gospel.
You are asking me to "prove" Paul? Lets flip it, then. What "learned" scholars are there who are refuting Paul? Granted that I am assuming Paul to be accurate as many scholars have done. I don't have time to dig all this stuff up!
Unfortunately, all you are giving me is Paul's opinion and belief. What backs up Paul's opinion besides Paul.
So, obviously, you are in the camp that sees no inerrency in scripture. This is not a field of my expertise, obviously. Show me the "experts" who have suggested rewriting history and dismissing Biblical authority and authenticity so easily. From my view, the burden of proof is not on scripture. The scriptures are as valid of a historical record of that time that we have. It is one thing to dismiss them, yet there is no other writings that even approach them in authenticity. The burden of proof is on the claim that suggests that the scriptures are inaccurate.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 219 (162408)
11-22-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lfen
11-22-2004 12:33 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Ifen writes:

The field I'm speaking of is history.


The Bible is the primary source reference to the history of that era that we have. We have little else. We have no transcriptions of messages from Roman governors to Rome concerning any matters of the day. Justin Martyr wrote corroborations of scripture in A.D. 150. Tertullian also boldly wrote using scriptures as evidence. In that these men were writing to the governing officials of that day, why would they risk their reputations inaccurately naming sources?
If we start with the rational assumption that scripture IS our record, we can verify the fact from there. If we start with the irrational assumption that scripture was contrived and that the defense of scripture, other scripture, equates to circular reasoning,
we have NOTHING but our own relativistic opinions to guess what history was like. Little was written about Jesus apart from scripture because, from the Roman point of view, Jesus was a nobody. A commoner. Nothing was important except Caesar!
I will say that from a Jewish point of view, Jesus was a misguided teacher. Either the largest "cult" in history sprang up from a myth, an irrational supposition and insult to human passion, or more likely this Jesus chap had some influence!

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 219 (162491)
11-23-2004 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
11-22-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Sure, Jar. I trust you.

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 Message 29 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 5:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 219 (162511)
11-23-2004 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
11-23-2004 12:34 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Yes, because pacts are what they are. Made to be kept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 12:34 AM jar has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 219 (162620)
11-23-2004 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 5:57 AM


Re: Righteousness
purpledawn writes:

Don't just say it, show where Paul claimed to speak for God.Show where Paul says that all he is saying is from God.


I know where you are heading with this. First, you put the burden of proof on us to prove that the Bible is inspired. Why can't you just show your learned sources that claim that it is not.

Atheism.org does not count. I have seen this issue (Biblical Inerrency) being debated and discussed, and am of the conclusion that it is a matter of belief. Each side has some validity, but no side has a monopoly on intelligence here. It is not merely a matter of a historic church with a flawed agenda to dupe humanity. The arguments for Scripture as canonical (Paul included) are sound...unless you approach the theologians with a defiance and a disdain for their conclusions.

Allow me to ask you Prurple Dawn==what is your position? Are you an atheist? Are you of claim to being a scholar of repute? Do you just like to debate and "win" by using the little list of common errors that theists make? It is one thing to knock a wall down...takes little skill. It is another to replace the bricks with a sound alternative.


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 219 (162623)
11-23-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
11-23-2004 9:13 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
I think I see the parable...yes, the Jews expect God to honor the pact. Dispensationalism, however, does not teach that the old Kingdom will not occur. It has just been put on hold. God has unfinished business with Israel. According to classic Mid Dispensational belief, the rapture of the church will occur before God again turns to Israel.

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 219 (162820)
11-24-2004 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ramoss
11-23-2004 6:51 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
How so? John was with Jesus as was Luke.How is that heresay?

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 219 (162894)
11-24-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
11-24-2004 8:36 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Ramoss, your "fact" is not proven. There is a debate about such matters. You atheists make it sound like your sources of knowledge are all that there is! You can't dismiss the counter arguments and sources from many well respected and learned Christian apologists. What books are you reading?

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 219 (163000)
11-24-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
11-24-2004 8:36 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Websters online:
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for psuedographical:
1. shadowgraphies
2. pseudoscorpions
3. pseudoscorpion
4. shadowgraphs
5. pseudoscientific
6. seductresses
7. stigmatically
8. seductress
9. stockholder
10. stochastically


So what was that word again?

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 219 (165548)
12-06-2004 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by ramoss
12-04-2004 12:33 PM


ramoss writes:

John never met Jesus in the flesh. He saw visions.

Which Beatle are you talking about, Sargent Pepper? I think you mean Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 12:33 PM ramoss has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 219 (166540)
12-09-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ramoss
12-09-2004 10:24 AM


What are you smoking?
Ramoss, you are thus telling me that in your scholastic search, John the Apostle did not write John the Gospel? You really should stop listening to the atheistic scholars with swollen egos. Why do you think that the authorship of John was NOT the Apostle? Here in Denver, Dr. Craig Blomberg at Denver Seminary has numerous scholastic sources that support the Apostle as author. Are you purposefully ignoring church sources due to bias? Even Church scholars have a brain...they don't just support each others facts because "God wrote it!" They actually do research and in many instances their research exceeds the secular scholars who take a different road merely to make a name for themselves and...unofficially...because they consciously despise the Biblical literalists and their supporters.

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 Message 201 by ramoss, posted 12-09-2004 10:24 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
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