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Author Topic:   Is sin allowed into heaven?
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 1 of 35 (159326)
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


Do christians believe that sin is allowed into heaven? By this I mean that do people in heaven have the possibility to sin?
If we don't have the possibility to sin, what of free will? That is always touted as the most important quality we have, stopping us being robots etc. It is also used as the reason that we can sin. If we can't sin in heaven have we lost free will? And if so, why was it so important we have it in the first place. If we haven't lost free will, then why aren't we stopped sinning on earth?
If sin is allowed into heaven, in what way is heaven any different to earth? Why is earth necessary at all, why not just go straight to heaven and miss out the uneccessary step?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-14-2004 1:42 PM happy_atheist has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 11-14-2004 1:43 PM happy_atheist has replied
 Message 8 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 12:07 AM happy_atheist has not replied
 Message 11 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 4:18 AM happy_atheist has replied
 Message 33 by commike37, posted 01-03-2005 12:01 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 35 (159361)
11-14-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


Jar?
Perhaps Jar will be interested in promoting this topic.
I'm allowing some personal views to interfer here since I don't feel a need for another count of the angels on pinheads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 9:44 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 3 of 35 (159362)
11-14-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


Jar?
Duplicate post.
My first submit got a timed out message. I'm rather sure I only clicked once more but got a duplicate anyway.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-14-2004 01:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 9:44 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 4:06 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 4 of 35 (159399)
11-14-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminNosy
11-14-2004 1:43 PM


Re: Jar?
Well I understand if you don't want to promote it. I just saw it as being at the core of christianity, so wondered what christians think of it. I see it as being a major inconsistency with christian doctrine since either a yes or no answer to the question seems to bring up problems.

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 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 11-14-2004 1:43 PM AdminNosy has not replied

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 Message 5 by AdminJar, posted 11-14-2004 5:11 PM happy_atheist has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 35 (159409)
11-14-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 4:06 PM


Re: Jar?
I'll promote it if you want but since absolutely no one alive has a clue what heaven will be like I doubt we could learn much. About the only answer you could get is "Who knows?".
If you still want it discussed just respond here and I'll bump it up. I assume you'd want it to go in faith and belief?

How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 4:06 PM happy_atheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Seafarer, posted 12-23-2004 5:37 PM AdminJar has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 6 of 35 (159450)
11-14-2004 7:47 PM


Yes, that was where I expected it to go. I asked the question because I assumed there would be something scriptural about it, so the original question (about sin being allowed into heaven) at least would have a definate answer, and then we could discuss the ramifications.

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 35 (159452)
11-14-2004 7:53 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 35 (161348)
11-19-2004 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


None of us know for sure, but I have theories. The meaning of life is to choose between the devil and God. People in Heaven, I think, do not sin because the devil isn't in it. He isn't there to influence us to sin at all, so therefore why would we sin? We have free will in Heaven because we CHOSE God, and by choosing Him, we get into Heaven. My family belive that you get one last chance after life to go to Heaven, and you get in by asking for forgiveness and choosing God. The only reason God made earth was so that we could CHOOSE. He doesn't want us to pick Him because He says. He wants us to choose Him because we love Him with our own free will. I hope that helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 9:44 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 35 (161676)
11-19-2004 10:52 PM


I'll have to agree with clash on this one. I think it's not so much that we're unable to sin(according to Christian theology/mythology Satan was once God's greatest angel, so he was obviously in heaven when he turned against God) but that we'll choose not to.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by happy_atheist, posted 11-20-2004 6:24 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 10 of 35 (161921)
11-20-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by One_Charred_Wing
11-19-2004 10:52 PM


born2preach writes:
but that we'll choose not to.
Why? What happens if we don't choose not to? Why not just send us all straight there and miss out the irrelevence of earth? Whatever choice we have to make, we can make it there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-19-2004 10:52 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 35 (162227)
11-22-2004 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


If we don't have the possibility to sin, what of free will?
I don't think free will exists......it's just an illusion. No matter what you believe, I don't see how you can believe in free will, if you consider it from an entirely logical perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 9:44 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:13 AM JasonChin has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 12 of 35 (162236)
11-22-2004 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by JasonChin
11-22-2004 4:18 AM


WhyWasIBannedAdminNosy writes:
I don't think free will exists......it's just an illusion.
Thats possible.
WhyWasIBannedAdminNosy writes:
No matter what you believe, I don't see how you can believe in free will, if you consider it from an entirely logical perspective.
I don't see determinism as an inevitability. Even in science and the laws of nature determinism doesn't exist, because it is physically impossible to know everything about a system. That is a property of the universe. Without knowing everything, you can't determine everything. Coupled with the entirely statistical nature of quantum mechanics there's certainly room in there for free will if indeed it does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 4:18 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 5:32 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 35 (162239)
11-22-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by happy_atheist
11-22-2004 5:13 AM


Even in science and the laws of nature determinism doesn't exist, because it is physically impossible to know everything about a system. That is a property of the universe. Without knowing everything, you can't determine everything.
Just because WE can't determine it doesn't mean it isnt predetermined........
Coupled with the entirely statistical nature of quantum mechanics there's certainly room in there for free will if indeed it does exist.
There are three possible reasons why this is true about Quantum Physics......either quantum physics is determined by metaphysical forces, forces we have determined yet or there's a perfectly logical explanation for quantum physics, but humans are just too dim to get it. Most scientists think it's the first or the last.
In any case, everything in the universe still remains predetermined, we just can't understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:13 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:42 AM JasonChin has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 14 of 35 (162242)
11-22-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by JasonChin
11-22-2004 5:32 AM


NosyIsAnUglyMan writes:
Just because WE can't determine it doesn't mean it isnt predetermined........
And it doesn't mean it is, it's pointless to say it is unless we know it is.
NosyIsAnUglyMan writes:
There are three possible reasons why this is true about Quantum Physics......either quantum physics is determined by metaphysical forces, forces we have determined yet or there's a perfectly logical explanation for quantum physics, but humans are just too dim to get it. Most scientists think it's the first or the last.
Bells inequality rules out the possibility for hidden variable theories of quantum mechanics. That is why non-local phenomenon such as entanglement are possible. Without this there would be no such thing as teleportation.
NosyIsAnUglyMan writes:
In any case, everything in the universe still remains predetermined, we just can't understand it.
Unsupported assertion...you can't start with a conclusion and then explain away things that don't fit it with handwaving and claims of incomplete knowledge. If we can't understand something, we can't have knowledge of it.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant to the thread. Free will is a fundamental part of christian doctrine, without it christianity is meaningless. For the purpose of this thread, assume that free will exists. If you want to start a thread on the existance of free will we can talk about this more there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 5:32 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 5:52 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 35 (162244)
11-22-2004 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by happy_atheist
11-22-2004 5:42 AM


Bells inequality rules out the possibility for hidden variable theories of quantum mechanics. That is why non-local phenomenon such as entanglement are possible. Without this there would be no such thing as teleportation.
In other words, we know for a fact that we know all that we're going to about quantum mechanics......correct, sir?
Unsupported assertion...you can't start with a conclusion and then explain away things that don't fit it with handwaving and claims of incomplete knowledge. If we can't understand something, we can't have knowledge of it.
Of course I can't support the claim that everything is predetermined........in order to do that, I'd have to determine everything, and, as you state above, Bell's inequality makes that impossible.
But it's a simple logical step to know that everything about ourselves is determined by outside forces.......and, therefore, free will is an illusion. All my decisions are predetermined by my environment and genetics, from a materialistic viewpoint.
Free will is a fundamental part of christian doctrine, without it christianity is meaningless.
Untrue. You guys should really study Christianity before making claims like this. Paul himself teaches against free will in Romans.
If you want to start a thread on the existance of free will we can talk about this more there.
That sounds pretty kwel........but you're gonna have to be the one to start it, as I know the admins won't post any threads from me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:42 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 6:21 AM JasonChin has replied

  
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