Women's Reactions to Rape

1) Women should carry guns? Women should learn hand-to-hand combat?-So ridiculous that, you must be joking. This is, as statistics will show you, more of an issue with being attacked by the boy next door than by a monster...your example is frivolous.-As a society it might be useful to quit portraying men as victims of their own bodies, and make them responsible, for once.-Men, by and large, are not beasts, most would probably consider themselves more intelligent than women, so why equate them with no more than base emotions. By doing this we shift responsibility from the man onto the woman...i.e your initial stand in a nutshell 'women should do something about it'. I would argue that men should do something about it, afterall: these women represent our wives, our mothers, our daughters, our sisters.I see Schrafinator has posted here so I'm sure you've caught alot of heat already

1) Imo, society would reflect the fact that men think women are equivalent in intelligence if that was the case
2) I would concede, however, that intelligence might not be the issue.
3) Knowing/thinking someone is not as intelligent as you does not equate with hatred of that person.

So, your superior solution to rape is pack a gun and learn self-defense? Do you recommend the same solution for children? For minorities? Where does education and accountability come in? If I'm not mistaken there are stiffer punishments for drugs and race related crimes than punishment for crimes against women and children.My post, I guess sexist according to you but who are you anyway?, was supposed to highlight the fact that I think it is a societal problem, NOT a woman's problem strictly! I was trying to get you to suggest REALISTIC alternatives/solutions to the problem...maybe you are unaware of the averages between men and women when muscle mass, height, and overall strength are concerned?...imo your suggestionn would make it more likely that women are killed in addition to be raped. Before you go ballistic, I am not suggesting inaction, I am not suggesting it should be "up to the men", I am simply saying that society, as a whole women AND MEN, are equally responsible for fostering an environment that promotes mutual respect. If you think we have achieved this in our society, as your later post would indicate, then you need to pull your head out!Btw, it's nice that you came to Schraf's defense, but I meant that as a compliment, not as a derogatory or sarcastic comment. I have a good deal of respect for Schraf.

No, it's not...that's called trust....something you don't seem to condone. Raising boys in an environment where objectification of women is not tolerated or encouraged would be education and actually foster a legitimate solution. Are you a politician? Because if you aren't, you really should be. Nothing in what I said would indicate what you have blatantly attributed to me in the above statement.Crash, if you can cut the defensiveness for two seconds I would point out that I agree with you that encouraging women to learn self-defense is a good idea, just like the whistles and the mace, BUT I do not agree with carrying guns and lowering your trust further. I am merely arguing that I think education (social and gender) is probably the long term solution to improving this societal blight. I was NOT recommending men as physical protectors, but as supportive and active participants in this problem. I, for one, being a part of this huge world will not stand by and be passive about this issue. Anywho, we've probably reached the end of the discourse.

Yeah, substantial evidence that the victim knows her attacker. If you have zilch connection with any evidence found it is more clear cut, but if it is an issue of rape within a marriage or a boyfriend where there is consensual use of the body as well as the living space the lines become blurred.

Please post my EXACT words where I say this. I might have said the first part was an unrealistic solution (more of an "arm's race" approach) and the last part is your delusion.CRASH's spin: TAQLESS's Actual statement: Specifically, since you seem stuck on the physical ways that a man could lend support (bias?). Showing equal presence in pushing for gender education, stricter laws, etc. I do not believe self-defense STOPS rape....do you?? In the end it is an act that reflects a certain thinking/mentality/misconception.CRASH's spin: really?TAQLESS: CRASH: really? see above, not really sure how much clearer I could be? Pick a specific statement I have actually made (subtract your conjecture)and I will be willing to expound on it. Oh, but according to you I could change the whole rape situation by knowing self-defense or having a gun, so that even if the victim was not prepared according to your suggestion then I could assist...

YOU claimed I said this: The quote you posted does not support this. Okay? Are you trying to put words in my mouth so that you can get angrier? I missed some women, you have my personal apology. Okay, gotcha'. I meant accountability as a society. Specifically the way in which girls are skewed towards love and boys are skewed towards sex. We are bombarded by this discrepancy virtually everywhere. If you want I can elaborate, but I won't at this time because I think it quickly strays from your initial post. Well, stats ARE NOT what you posted and I certainly did not get this indication that's where you were coming from. My apologies, so what post did you cite the stats in? I'm interested to see what they are.-Thanks

In your post you have suggested that
1) The readers might get confused by what I've written
2) I might not realize that I'm sexistI do not think this is confusing:
-You suggest self-defense, carrying guns, and constant distrust of men as a valid solution to rape.
-I suggest addressing the "root" problem, education and accountability (societal)...neither rebutted by you...because you agree??
-I did not see where your stats said that knowing self-defense stopped the rape.
-While I would concur that based on what you have posted it doesn't have a negative impact on the situation (in general).
-My caution is women getting a false sense of security, and people thinking that the problem really is no bigger than learning self-defense.What "we" do you keep spouting off about? A good feeling is a proven effect? Now, you are suggesting that what?.....I'm a woman and that's why I am critical of your approach?

After Crashfrog's responses and yours I certainly see that my comment was....less than clear and definitely not sensitive.Since, as I understood it, Crashfrog's opinion was that the actions that are currently undertaken to prevent rape are ineffectual and "I don't get it" there were two things that quickly followed:
1) The way it was being dealt with, indirectly attributed to women, was the above.
2) So, as a better example, follow what men would do
- carry a gun
- learn hand-to-hand combat
- Foster distrust of the opposite sexMy contention was/is the following:
1) This has not worked for our country, or any other situation!
1) All 3 are not solutions and definitely NOT a prevention.
2) One COULD take this, as CF has accused me of, saying that women should do "nothing", but then by default you both are saying that women that do not fall into the above 3 suggestions are "doing nothing" right now, right?
5) The fact is something is being done about it
-Education: college courses, jogging with a partner, caution
around drugs and alcohol, and being aware of your
environment...REAL PREVENTATIVE measures!!
6) The problem with the statistics that were provided is that CF, as I understood in the way the stats were presented with his/her comments, was trying to draw a parallel between the decrease in rape with women getting physical.....I would argue that the correlation between physicality and post act psychology was probably the best correlation that could be made. For Christ's sake I meant they should be seen as working towards this in the limelight along side women (not just the husbands/boyfriend's of victims), and that if it required FURTHER thought that they have a vested interest because it could happen to THEIR sisters/mothers/friends (I guess I was made the bad guy by CF for that statement before but..)!! I think it is a critical role that could boost and set an example for boys/men everywhere....or maybe I'm just not keen on having to deal with more distrust of men...especially since some of us have benefited greatly from the examples set by our father's. I'm against the notion though that we invoke aggression and distrust as a solution. You need to ask and address WHY men are committing this act and how can it be prevented? Not rant and rave about the way women are dealing with the situation. I think by changing the way men and women think about each other has far more potential, which I would argue the stats that CF showed are indicative of.

Before I make a statement are you suggesting that "the solution men would implement" is the right way? No, the root problem is the attitude/thinking behind the act. I've already pointed out that the punishment for drugs and DWI is stricter that it is for crimes against women and children...so what you have written is not technically true. Well, that masks the number of rapes which then compounds any calculations made or based on said number..not good. What is "greater" injury? Greater than what exactly? This is a subjective parameter, and presumes to know what the attacker would have done IF the woman had done nothing. As I have already pointed out to Worm...are you by default saying that a woman who does not know self-defense is doing "nothing"?

As I've clearly stated: Self-defense is NOT, in most situations, preventative! No, it's not, I saying as a society we need to stop treating men as victims of their own bodies and set a good example by our actions.

However, this evidence you are mentioning does not support
-hand-to-hand combat
-gun toting
-distrust of men Well, at this juncture the "expanded" version is convenient for you since most of it is already in practice and taught. Which makes it ambiguous as to why you felt women were "doing nothing" before?

Again, extrapolation on your part. I have always listed all 3 as SEPARATE, in and of themselves, AND that you suggest taken together to be a further solution for the problem. However, I do not think that "distrust of men" OR carrying a gun is, or should be, considered a PART OF any solution. I went to the report and did not find evidence to support carrying a gun (they mention the perp having a gun, etc).
We are dealing with this:
1)Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. (US Senate Judiciary Committee 1993)I admit this is an old statistic, but are you willing to continue stating that "we are already holding the offenders accountable"...so check that off of the to-do list?2)In a 1999 longitudinal study of 3,000 women, researchers found women who had been victimized before were seven times more likely to be raped again. (Acierno, Resnick, Kilpatrick, Saunders and Best, Jnl. of Anxiety Disorders 13, 6.)If this isn't a case for educating women on self-image and their role NOT distrust of men, I don't know what the hell is!3)In a survey of college males who committed rape, 84% said what they did was definitely not rape. (Warshaw, Robin 1994 "I Never Called It Rape")
4)A study of 477 male students, mostly 1st and 2nd year students, found 56% reported instances of non-assaultive coercion to obtain sex. Examples included: threatening to end a relationship; falsely professing love; telling lies to render her more sexually receptive. (Boeringer 1996, Violence Against Women:5)So, is it really true that we should promote further miscommunication between the sexes through distrust OR is aggressive education a better option(supported by both MEN and women)? I obviously do not agree with suggestions of carrying guns...which could prove MORE dangerous to everyone involved. The following is a quote from an organization, there are many, that answers 'What can men do to help?'...THIS is what I advocate in addition to every definition of self-defense (except guns):

Yes, especially when you say the following: 1) Refer to what I posted to Crashfrog
2) Do you really think men have done everything they can to address
this problem?Disclaimer: I will be the first to admit I do not think this is strictly a guy's attitude problem....it is a woman's attitude problem as well. Which is why aggressive re-education for the "post neanderthal" stage that I think we've achieved is important and furthering distrust is not conducive.

Really? 'Et tu Brutus' mean anything to you? Guys have to worry just as much as women about not being ready for betrayal. What a naive and idiotic example for you to make. In terms of distrust we are ultimately talking about betrayal!! NO ONE, man or woman, is EVER prepared for betrayal...your friend could still whack you, does not matter if you have training or not. Why? Because at some minimal level there is a trust.