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Author Topic:   Women's Reactions to Rape
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 178 of 235 (162318)
11-22-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by nator
11-22-2004 8:43 AM


But that's just a verbal insult and hardly justification for any kind of physical violence.
For hundreds of years, though, it was. And it still feels like it would be, to me.
I mean, I am sitting here reading this and I really cannot believe that you and other people think that these "rules" are valid or appropriate in the least.
Like I said, though, they were, for hundreds of years. Men dealt with it, somehow. Many men still feel the same way, and they still deal with it. Which was my point, in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by nator, posted 11-22-2004 8:43 AM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 179 of 235 (162320)
11-22-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by contracycle
11-22-2004 10:40 AM


... until you disarm them.
Indeed. Somehow, men have already managed to accomplish that. I'm simply suggesting we restore the balance of power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by contracycle, posted 11-22-2004 10:40 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by contracycle, posted 11-22-2004 10:51 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 181 of 235 (162327)
11-22-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by contracycle
11-22-2004 10:51 AM


that rape must be considered a normal part of our social environment and women should, alone, simply prepare for the inevitability.
Not so. But rape is a reality, for one in three women. Clearly, our efforts to "remove it from the environment" have been manifest failures. For the practical future, women need to be prepared to resist rape. It's sad but true. I mean, we shouldn't stop trying to get men to stop raping women, but we can do that and arm women at the same time, you see. I don't know why everybody thinks I'm proposing shifting the responsibility to women. What I'm trying to do is figure out a way for women not to be harmed by our manifest failure to eliminate rape from the environment.
You're basically saying "women, you're on your own, fight back or suffer."
No, I'm basically saying "everything we've tried so far has failed. Women, there's a realistic posibility that you will be raped, because of our failure to put a stop to it, and it would be best if you were prepared for that." Women can agree or disagree; arm themselves or not. I started this thread to find out why, so far, they've been choosing not to when the evidence seems to suggest that they should.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by contracycle, posted 11-22-2004 10:51 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-22-2004 11:36 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 186 of 235 (162392)
11-22-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Taqless
11-22-2004 3:40 PM


We don't seem to be connecting on any level. You appear to me to be misrepresenting my arguments; you're sure I'm doing the same to you.
It simply isn't fruitful for us to continue, I think.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-22-2004 03:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 3:40 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 4:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 189 of 235 (162399)
11-22-2004 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Taqless
11-22-2004 3:52 PM


This is what I was talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 3:52 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 4:26 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 192 of 235 (162427)
11-22-2004 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Taqless
11-22-2004 4:26 PM


Step up and own it!
No offense, but no. You don't seem to be willing to approach this dispassionately, and I'm not interested in fighting through your enthusiasm (to use the best possible word) to try to get you to see it my way, or to reach a consensus you don't seem to be interested in reaching.
I'm sorry, I truly am, but fruitful discussion simply isn't going to be possible between us on this subject, and I believe that when that's the case, the mature thing to do is admit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 4:26 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 7:56 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 194 of 235 (162445)
11-22-2004 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Taqless
11-22-2004 7:56 PM


And I'll say it again. You've made it clear that you're interested in nothing but besting me in an intellectual dick-measuring contest; I believe that this topic deserves better.
But you apparently disagree. I'll not respond to you in this or any other thread, and you can keep your gloating and name-calling to yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Taqless, posted 11-22-2004 7:56 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Taqless, posted 11-23-2004 10:43 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 202 of 235 (162768)
11-23-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by roxrkool
11-23-2004 2:25 PM


Life is uncertain and scary enough as it is without adding to it a distrust of half our population.
I don't understand how that makes sense. I mean, if only one in 20, or one in 30, women were being raped in their lifetime, then I can see how you might opt for trust over safety, when the risk is low.
But it's one in three. One in three. "Trust" at this point seems like carelessness to me; like a cavalier disregard for one's personal safety. Or worse, a sort of voluntary martyrdom. "How noble am I; I'm going to expose myself to a needless degree of risk so that there might be peace between the sexes."
Am I off-base? I don't see how. Why is distrusting men worse than being raped by one?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-23-2004 08:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by roxrkool, posted 11-23-2004 2:25 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2004 11:55 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 205 of 235 (162921)
11-24-2004 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by contracycle
11-24-2004 5:02 AM


But thats not really the point, Crash - the point is that is it is innapropriate to place the burden of responsibility for responding to rape onto women.
For like the millionth time, that's not at all what I'm proposing. For god's sake, read.
What I'm wondering is why women haven't already shouldered that burden, after men have manifestly failed with it. Women relying on men to handle this problem would be like entrusting the Arab world with the responsibility not to blow up New York. It's just plain stupid. Men have demonstrated they can't be trusted with this burden. It's foolishness to trust your attacker not to attack you.
What about date rapes, especially drug-assisted rapes? Violence can't help a woman in this situation
Why? Rape is rape. If women can't handle the thought of resisting a close male friend, or even a male aquaintence, then something is very wrong.
The fact that MEN condone these actions among other MEN is the source of the problem
Aside from the rapists involved, show me a single man who condoned this crime.
You're so sure that there's this male culture of rape that tells rapists that it's ok for them to rape, but I've never heard anybody tell me that, nor have I heard it said to any other man. So where do we start, with your grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 5:02 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 11:33 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 209 by nator, posted 11-24-2004 12:59 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 211 by Taqless, posted 11-24-2004 2:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 206 of 235 (162923)
11-24-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by IrishRockhound
11-24-2004 8:05 AM


I find as well that the good exercise obtained from martial arts training goes a long way towards making women feel better about themselves, thus its benefit is two-fold.
Yes, exactly. People who study martial arts and self-defense don't become distrustful and paranoid; they become confident and self-assured, and able to be more outgoing, simply because they know they're no longer at the tender mercies of people bigger than themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-24-2004 8:05 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 212 of 235 (162979)
11-24-2004 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by contracycle
11-24-2004 11:33 AM


Unfortunately, society has by and large rejected it.
So time for Plan B: Arm women.
I take exception to the allegation that ALL men are would-be rapists, nor do I accept that men are irrational beings driven by lust and unamenable to logic, or respect for other people.
So take exception to it. The reality is that there seems to be no way to predict what man will turn into a rapist. If there were, the majority of rapes would be stranger rapes.
So, sorry. I'm a man, too, and it sucks. But until there's a way to predict which men are going to suddenly metamorphose into dangerous rapists, women are completely justified in treating us all like potential ones. But the only people you have to blame for this are other men.
Why should women have to handle it? Why can't men handle it?
What men? There's only one there - the rapist. Isn't it lunacy to expect him just to stop? Isn't it lunacy for a woman to gamble her saftey on him doing just that?
Well it seems to me that you are, because in your opinion this poor girl didn't shoulder the responsibility for protecting herself.
Look, talk me through this. The first time you said this I thought you were joking because I wouldn't have believed anyone would have been manifestly stupid enough to confuse my argument with this ridiculous characture.
But clearly I was wrong. Obviously, it makes sense to you to go from recognition of the failure of men to police themselves and a suggestion that women act accordingly to blaming the victim of violent assault for crimes perpetrated against her person. And it's clearly not just you; almost everybody who enters this thread shoots off that salvo. So talk me through how it makes sense. Because, as far as I can see, it doesn't.
It's a sign of the weakness of your own argument that the best defense of your position is to misrepresent mine.
these guys were quite willing and able to make this part and parcel of their shared male culture.
This is idiotic. The problem is that these 12 guys are rapists.
Where's this "culture" that's supposed to have told you and I that it's ok to rape? Because I've never seen it. I've never met anyone who's seen it.
Your "plan" is just a convinient smokescreen for inaction. You reduce the problem to a situation that you're not expected to solve because it eases your conscience to spread the blame so widely you don't have to point a finger. Or worse - you're prefer that women have to rely on men for their defense, because it makes your ego feel better.
Well, I don't give a damn about your ego, or your archaic need to have women rely on you for protection. The problem is rape, and your attitude simply facilitates it. You perpetuate the stereotype of women as too weak to lift a hand in their own defense.
I remind you of the Dirty Sanchez discussion we had previously
You must be thinking of someone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 11:33 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by nator, posted 11-25-2004 8:16 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 223 by contracycle, posted 11-25-2004 11:14 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 213 of 235 (162980)
11-24-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by roxrkool
11-24-2004 11:55 AM


nor is a deep-seated mistrust of every single male on the planet.
I don't understand where you expect this "distrust" to stem from. Distrust comes from powerlessness, not from confidence and ability.
Have you ever met a paranoid martial artist? I never have. Learning how to defend yourself gives you the confidence to trust, not a distrust in your fellow person.
There's an array of lethal objects arranged about the house, and I know that my wife would use them on me to defend herself, if that was necessary. But I trust her, and she me.
"Distrust" simply isn't a part of this equation, and I don't understand why it keeps coming up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2004 11:55 AM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2004 4:34 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 214 of 235 (162981)
11-24-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by nator
11-24-2004 12:59 PM


There's more than one study out there that shows that a damn high percentage of college age men would rape a woman if they knew for sure they could get away with it.
Look, if your plan to change the male mind can't even succeed where feminist ideas are strongest, that is to say college, isn't it about time we realized what a manifest failure this plan has been?
And I say this as a man, and as a feminist. Your plan to get men to stop raping women is hopeless. It's a failure. What more evidence do you need than the very surveys you just alluded to?
It's time to start arming women against predators, because reforming the predators simply doesn't work. And the predators could be literally any man they meet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by nator, posted 11-24-2004 12:59 PM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 216 of 235 (163013)
11-24-2004 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by roxrkool
11-24-2004 4:34 PM


You both need that trust in your lives. Without it, you wouldn't be able to survive as a couple.
Yes, exactly. And what I was trying to tell you is that that trust persists even with the knowledge that she could kill me if she wanted.
And, look. You can always invent scenarios where whatever solution we're proposing won't be effective. So I don't find your example very convincing. Not every rape proceeds along the lines you've laid out; not even most of them.
So we can invent scenarios where a woman gets raped, no matter how she prepares. So what? Why is that an argument for not being prepared at all? I don't get it.
It's not going to help me when I'm attacked by a man I considered a friend.
Maybe the knowledge that you have the weapon prevents the men you consider friends from attacking you.
I really get the feeling you're not thinking through the consequences of being armed. It's not enough to be armed or trained, of course. People should know that you're armed and trained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2004 4:34 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 218 of 235 (163070)
11-24-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dynamo321
11-24-2004 7:03 PM


Boy, you know what I love? Rebutting the same arguments over and over again. People, please. If you're going to jump into this topic, start at the beginning and read all the posts. What did you think we were doing here, for over 200 posts?
with how screwed up the "justice" system is now, the victim would end up being sued or charged by the attempted rapist if she successfully defended herself with a weapon.
Me, from message 57:
quote:
But if a woman is being attacked and thinking "hrm, I'd better not kill this guy, because I'm not sure I can make self-defense stick", then she needs to radically re-evaluate her priorities.
The legal system provides remedies for the redress of injust conviction. What remedy is provided by the rapist?
Wouldn't you rather take your chances with the legal system, with its built-in protocols for fairness and appeal, than the "system" the rapist has put into place, which is calculated to put you at every disadvantage?
The problem is societal & governmental, not personal.
Really? Because you've made the exact opposite argument. You've just argued that women as a whole are too weak, in both body and will, to defend themselves, and that it's up to men to defend women from rape. But it's arrogant presumption in the extreme to expect women to go along with this plan, when to date our efforts to defend them from rape have been such manifest failures.
Women simply can't afford to wait for men to do something about this problem. They've been waiting for centuries, and what's the result? One in three women will be raped in her lifetime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Dynamo321, posted 11-24-2004 7:03 PM Dynamo321 has not replied

  
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