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Author Topic:   Women's Reactions to Rape
wormjitsu
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 235 (162563)
11-23-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by IrishRockhound
11-22-2004 11:36 AM


IrishRockHound- "Perhaps it's a cultural thing. It's not "ladylike" to go to self-defense classes and learn the best way to break a man's leg in three places."
Thats true. Perhaps thats exactly the same inhibition that drives Tagless in his approach to women being raped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-22-2004 11:36 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 235 (162572)
11-23-2004 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by wormjitsu
11-23-2004 6:27 AM


quote:
Tagless, you are rediculous in your claim that we should all just run from eachother in distrust
Thats not Tagless argument, thats yours. That our society should be beased on mutual fear and the willingness and prepardness to resort to violence at any moment.
quote:
Then you bash on the ability for a woman to defend herself like it's a bad thing.
Thats a lie - Tagless and others have made it clear they DO support women learning self defence. What we do NOT support is the premise with which this thread started - that women are "odd" in not expecting to be raped and preparing to defend themselves with violence.
Is it so weird to think that in 2004 women might be free to exist without being obliged to treat all men as predators? No doubt you will then whine about how distrustful women are.
There is not getting away from the fact that this proposition blaces responsibility on women to avoid victimhood, and absolves broader society, specifically men, of taking responsibility for their own behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by wormjitsu, posted 11-23-2004 6:27 AM wormjitsu has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 198 of 235 (162614)
11-23-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by wormjitsu
11-23-2004 6:27 AM


Tagless, you are rediculous in your claim that we should all just run from eachother in distrust.
First, had you been following this thread...it is not I who suggested mistrust was part of the solution to resolving rape. Not sure where you are getting this from? I am against fostering distrust, and that is why I disagree with Crashfrog and his/her claim that historically the reason men wore weapons was in the event he had to use them on his friends....I think those that are history buffs on this forum might find this claim naive, at best. There is nothing to be gained from distrust. So, until I hear something realistic and true in support, I will take it as a concession that Crashfrog was unable to support it! Any other twists you'd like to add?
And your solution is what? To figure a way to make betrayal nonexistant. Your living in a fantasy.
First, you are off topic. Second, maybe you can do the job that Crashfrog was unable to, tell me and everyoneelse on this forum how fostering distrust will improve the problem of rape. Unless there is a problem with your ability to read, I have already suggested REALISTIC solutions to this problem. So, go, check it out.
Let me ask YOU, once again, do you think MEN have done everything they can to help the problem?? Both you and Crashfrog have avoided this question like the plague. So, answer it, I'm sure everyone here on this thread would love to hear your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by wormjitsu, posted 11-23-2004 6:27 AM wormjitsu has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 199 of 235 (162617)
11-23-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by crashfrog
11-22-2004 9:23 PM


Yeah, big of you to accuse me of being sexist, misrepresenting you, and then running off. Whatever, I'll be the bigger person since you have run out of support for your argument.
Maybe you can contribute as much time to being active in REAL anti-Rape organizations instead of settling for discussing something you apparently think can only be settled through violence and mistust.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2004 9:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 200 of 235 (162680)
11-23-2004 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by wormjitsu
11-23-2004 6:59 AM


Hmm... I was under the impression Tagless was a woman. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
Nevertheless, I totally concur with everything Tagless has said regarding Crash's approach to how women should respond to having been raped and how to prevent rape.
Perhaps it's the female mindset that prohibits most women from wanting to go through life worried and afraid of every man she meets. Life is uncertain and scary enough as it is without adding to it a distrust of half our population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by wormjitsu, posted 11-23-2004 6:59 AM wormjitsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Taqless, posted 11-23-2004 8:10 PM roxrkool has not replied
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2004 8:17 PM roxrkool has replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 201 of 235 (162764)
11-23-2004 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by roxrkool
11-23-2004 2:25 PM


Yeah, one would probably think either a woman or a gay guy, right?
....distrust of half our population.
Or making that half of the population have to pay for a coupla' wankers. Relationships are difficult enough already.
Btw, thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by roxrkool, posted 11-23-2004 2:25 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 202 of 235 (162768)
11-23-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by roxrkool
11-23-2004 2:25 PM


Life is uncertain and scary enough as it is without adding to it a distrust of half our population.
I don't understand how that makes sense. I mean, if only one in 20, or one in 30, women were being raped in their lifetime, then I can see how you might opt for trust over safety, when the risk is low.
But it's one in three. One in three. "Trust" at this point seems like carelessness to me; like a cavalier disregard for one's personal safety. Or worse, a sort of voluntary martyrdom. "How noble am I; I'm going to expose myself to a needless degree of risk so that there might be peace between the sexes."
Am I off-base? I don't see how. Why is distrusting men worse than being raped by one?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-23-2004 08:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by roxrkool, posted 11-23-2004 2:25 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by roxrkool, posted 11-24-2004 11:55 AM crashfrog has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 235 (162839)
11-24-2004 5:02 AM


But thats not really the point, Crash - the point is that is it is innapropriate to place the burden of responsibility for responding to rape onto women. It would seem to me much healthier to try to treat the problem of why men rape, and develop a healtheir society with healthier realthionships between men and women, then resign ourselves to the inveitbality and advoctae the resort to violence.
Of all the solutions, violence seems to me the least effective. As has been pointed out at great length - few women are attacked and raped by strangers. What about date rapes, especially drug-assisted rapes? Violence can't help a woman in this situation, and so appealing tio violence as a solution is useless.
We have a recent case where a woman was gang-raped by 12 men, filmed, and told to "look happy" for the camera; are we really saying a young girl is expeccted to physically fight of 12 men and this is the best solution? No the problem is why the 12 men didn't stop each other - why male culture so frequently treats women as things rather than people. These guys were able to phone each other up and invite them to join in a rape in progress. The fact that MEN condone these actions among other MEN is the source of the problem - not lack of kung fu in womens shelters.
'Gang rape teenager was filmed'
A girl allegedly gang-raped by a group of footballers was told to "act happy" as she was filmed, a court has heard.
The teenager told Kingston Crown Court she was forced to perform sex acts on up to 12 men at a flat in Brockley, south-east London, in March.
Grimsby Town's Terrell Forbes, 23, denies one count of rape.
Philip Mighton, 23, Darren Wallace, 23, Ashley Campbell, 21, Kevin George, 21, and Shane Sutherland, 21, all from south London, deny rape charges.
'Duvet on the floor'
The court had earlier been told the girl befriended Mr Sutherland who drove her to Mr Mighton's flat where she was raped by an "unknown number" of men on 4 March .
There were people on the phone saying 'Come, we've got dessert for you'
Alleged gang-rape victim
The teenager told the court Mr Forbes, known as TJ, forced her to have sex in the bathroom.
She said she complained her back was hurting and told the court: "He said to wait until he had finished."
As she was "dragged" into the bathroom, she could hear men on the phone inviting others to join them.
"There were people on the phone saying 'Come, we've got dessert for you,'" she told the court.
Later she was taken into the living room where she saw one man putting a duvet on the floor, the girl claimed.
She said she saw Mr Sutherland with a video camera and was told by him to "say hi" and introduce herself, and to "act happy" for the camera.
The girl, now 16, said the alleged attackers played a DVD showing a killing.
She said: "One of the boys said 'We are killers, you know'. Then he said 'Oh, you think we are joking, we will chop you up and put you under the floorboards.'"
She told the jury she thought he was joking but became scared when they played the film.
She then claimed a catalogue of horrific abuse took place including being forced to perform a sex act while another man held a cosh up to her.
She also said she was abused with a bottle and another tried to make her drink urine.
The court heard the girl was "just frightened" throughout the alleged ordeal and was unable to leave because she "felt like a prisoner".
The jury was earlier told the ordeal lasted 24 hours before the girl sent a text message to a friend saying 12 men had had sex with her.
She then took a taxi to Euston, London, where she met a friend and "hugged her to death", she told jurors.
Medical tests showed a friction burn on her spine and evidence of forced penetration, the court heard.
Mr Sutherland, from Anerley, Mr Wallace, from Brockley and Mr George, from Catford, all deny one count of rape.
Mr Mighton, from Brockley, denies three counts of rape and Mr Campbell also from Brockley, denies two charges of rape.
Mr Forbes was playing for west London club Queens Park Rangers at the time of the assault.
The case continues.
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4022365.stm

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-24-2004 8:05 AM contracycle has not replied
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 10:54 AM contracycle has replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 204 of 235 (162862)
11-24-2004 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by contracycle
11-24-2004 5:02 AM


Unfortunately I have to agree with both sides here. I feel that men's attitudes to rape need to be changed - that they know they can't get away with it, that women should be treated with respect, and so on. Socitey as a whole needs to be more responsible in the way it portrays both sexes. I particularly dislike the constant portrayal of women in magazines as ornaments to be looked at and played with - it only encourages the mindset that all women should be treated like that in men, and the mindset of oneupmanship in women and girls (and in this case I dislike it because it causes women to hate their own bodies).
However, I still agree with Crashfrog that women should know how to defend themselves. The proper training can be applied to any threatening situation, not just rape - consider the response of a woman to being mugged, for example. This is not similar to a drug-rape where no effective defense can be mounted; the knowledge of how to disarm and disable an attacker is suddenly very relevant.
I find as well that the good exercise obtained from martial arts training goes a long way towards making women feel better about themselves, thus its benefit is two-fold.
The Rockhound

"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 5:02 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 10:56 AM IrishRockhound has not replied
 Message 210 by Taqless, posted 11-24-2004 1:30 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 205 of 235 (162921)
11-24-2004 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by contracycle
11-24-2004 5:02 AM


But thats not really the point, Crash - the point is that is it is innapropriate to place the burden of responsibility for responding to rape onto women.
For like the millionth time, that's not at all what I'm proposing. For god's sake, read.
What I'm wondering is why women haven't already shouldered that burden, after men have manifestly failed with it. Women relying on men to handle this problem would be like entrusting the Arab world with the responsibility not to blow up New York. It's just plain stupid. Men have demonstrated they can't be trusted with this burden. It's foolishness to trust your attacker not to attack you.
What about date rapes, especially drug-assisted rapes? Violence can't help a woman in this situation
Why? Rape is rape. If women can't handle the thought of resisting a close male friend, or even a male aquaintence, then something is very wrong.
The fact that MEN condone these actions among other MEN is the source of the problem
Aside from the rapists involved, show me a single man who condoned this crime.
You're so sure that there's this male culture of rape that tells rapists that it's ok for them to rape, but I've never heard anybody tell me that, nor have I heard it said to any other man. So where do we start, with your grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 5:02 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 11:33 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 209 by nator, posted 11-24-2004 12:59 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 211 by Taqless, posted 11-24-2004 2:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 206 of 235 (162923)
11-24-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by IrishRockhound
11-24-2004 8:05 AM


I find as well that the good exercise obtained from martial arts training goes a long way towards making women feel better about themselves, thus its benefit is two-fold.
Yes, exactly. People who study martial arts and self-defense don't become distrustful and paranoid; they become confident and self-assured, and able to be more outgoing, simply because they know they're no longer at the tender mercies of people bigger than themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-24-2004 8:05 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 235 (162935)
11-24-2004 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
11-24-2004 10:54 AM


quote:
What I'm wondering is why women haven't already shouldered that burden, after men have manifestly failed with it.
Its called feminism - an attempt to make the relationship between men and women healthier by demonstrating a historical trend that enourages men to view women as sex objects, and prposes ways that this can be overcome. Unfortunately, society has by and large rejected it.
(ironically, onme of the charges AGAINST feminism has been occassioanl statements to the effect that all men are potential rapists)
quote:
Women relying on men to handle this problem would be like entrusting the Arab world with the responsibility not to blow up New York. It's just plain stupid. Men have demonstrated they can't be trusted with this burden. It's foolishness to trust your attacker not to attack you.
The logic of the burka in Islamic states is exactly what you cite - men are untrustworthy beasts, and women can and should protect themselves from attack by not presenting themselves as targets - not being freely sexual beings.
I take exception to the allegation that ALL men are would-be rapists, nor do I accept that men are irrational beings driven by lust and unamenable to logic, or respect for other people. That does not appear to me to be a valid description of men at all - I know many men who have been very caring and sensitive. This charsacterisation of men as evil sexual predators is not inherently true.
And I have every confidence that we could in fact trust Arabs not to blow up New York if we dod not insist on making war on arab states.
[quote] Why? Rape is rape. If women can't handle the thought of resisting a close male friend, or even a male aquaintence, then something is very wrong.[quote] Why should women have to handle it? Why can't men handle it? Why is it always the womans responsibility to avoid being attacked, and not the attackers responsibility not to attack?
quote:
Aside from the rapists involved, show me a single man who condoned this crime.
Well it seems to me that you are, because in your opinion this poor girl didn't shoulder the responsibility for protecting herself. Now I accept you are not actually just saying "too bad", but the fact of the matter is that this is not rape that is conducted by a single, rogue male in shameful and guilty isolation, concealing their crime from their fellows for fear of punishment - these guys were quite willing and able to make this part and parcel of their shared male culture. It is that male culture that is the problem - misogyny, in short.
quote:
You're so sure that there's this male culture of rape that tells rapists that it's ok for them to rape, but I've never heard anybody tell me that, nor have I heard it said to any other man. So where do we start, with your grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?
IMO, and there have been arguments about this before, many men simply don't like women very much. I remind you of the Dirty Sanchez discussion we had previously - an incident in which a woman is humiliated on film for the pleasurable consumption of other men. As long as the humiliation and denigration of women in popular culture our whole culture persist, and it is alive and well, we will still be propagating a female identity as a sex OBJECT, not a person at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 10:54 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 2:59 PM contracycle has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 208 of 235 (162939)
11-24-2004 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
11-23-2004 8:17 PM


Crash, I do see what you're saying, and like RH, I agree that women should learn how to protect themselves. I think that one thing alone would save many women from the horror of rape, but I don't think women carrying guns is necessarily the right answer, nor is a deep-seated mistrust of every single male on the planet.
The fact is, most women who have been raped end up with a serious mistrust of all men they meet - for good reason. That is inevitable and those feelings don't go away - at least not without a lot of self-reflection and/or therapy.
You will probably ask WHY would you want those feelings of distrust to go away. Why not mistrust every man you meet?
Thing is, I think many women do, to a point, look at every man they meet as a potential rapist - even the women who have never been raped. We've seen the news and we've talked to our friends. But you know what? It's really hard to keep that mindset when you find you like the man. You WANT to trust him. You WANT to think he's a good man who will treat you well and protect you if you need it. You WANT to have him as a friend. It's almost a 'need' to find a man you can trust and women always fall for a sweet-talkin' man.
And sometimes, you make a mistake in judgement. Many times, that's the hardest part about rape - the fact that you allowed yourself to trust someone who then violates your person - mind, body, and soul.
If you failed yourself in that regard, where else might you fail yourself? You lose trust in your ability to judge situations and people... and you also lost trust in your intuition. Women tend you have a very well developed sense of intuition, and we depend on this a great deal.
That's why I think women cannot go through life with a deep seated mistrust of every man they meet. We already do mistrust men to a point, but at some point, that mistrust has to become trust if we want to have a relationship with him - and that's also the point where rapes are most common. We've let our guard down and then the rapist makes his move.
Ask any man who's dated a recent victim of rape how easy it is to have a relationship with them. It isn't. You cannot have an intimite relationship with someone who thinks you can/will hurt them. Similarly, women can not have a healthy relationship with a man they don't trust.
Perhaps the problem lies with our evolutionary path. Although not so much the case today, human females have in the past depended entirely on their males for protection. Females HAD to put their trust in the male companions and I think that instinct is still strongly ingrained in women today.
Personally, I am not sure rape can ever be abolished, and that thought alone is terrifying.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 11-24-2004 12:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2004 8:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 3:04 PM roxrkool has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 235 (162945)
11-24-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
11-24-2004 10:54 AM


quote:
You're so sure that there's this male culture of rape that tells rapists that it's ok for them to rape, but I've never heard anybody tell me that, nor have I heard it said to any other man. So where do we start, with your grandiose plan to change the minds of all men?
There's more than one study out there that shows that a damn high percentage of college age men would rape a woman if they knew for sure they could get away with it.
I am not sure of the quality of those statistics, but it isn't just one study.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 10:54 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by crashfrog, posted 11-24-2004 3:07 PM nator has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 210 of 235 (162952)
11-24-2004 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by IrishRockhound
11-24-2004 8:05 AM


1st Paragraph:This is the point where Crashfrog is getting stuck though. Crashfrog does not seem to think that there is anything more that men can do except NOT rape women. Imo, a problem cannot be resolved by the victimized half.
The part of this debate that I find incredible is can you, yourself, even conceive of addressing racism in a similar fashion? I realize it is off-topic, but the fact that we are more comfortable with saying "yeah, women need to learn self-defense since it would improve the "attack situation"", BUT if you look at it from a racism point of view I think Crashfrog would be reticent to post statements such as:
"what more can white people do except NOT be racist?"
"white people have failed" ergo it is up to [insert minority here] to shoulder the responsibility...oh, and why haven't they already?"
I'm trusting that you will realize this is a simple question posed to you...just to test yourself...maybe you already have. In case, as has been posted by roxrkool I think that completely abolishing rape, and in my example racism, is unlikely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-24-2004 8:05 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
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