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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
AdminHambre
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 219 (162590)
11-23-2004 8:28 AM


Chin-sighting and Chinciting
YesthisisTrue and HowManyColors are the latest noms de Chin and have been banned. Again, encouraging his participation is not a good idea.

Adminíssimo Hambre


Replies to this message:
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FlamingHomosexual 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 47 of 219 (162597)
11-23-2004 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 8:19 AM


Don't just say it, show me, oh YeOfManyNames.
List the verses.

Are you kidding? I didn't list any verses (and wont now, since I'll probably be banned in a few minutes) because they're so numerous and famous I didn't think I'd have to.......such as Jesus appearing to Paul on the road to Tarsus, or God telling Paul "My strength is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness".


This message is a reply to:
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FlamingHomosexual 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 48 of 219 (162598)
11-23-2004 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by AdminHambre
11-23-2004 8:28 AM


Re: Chin-sighting and Chinciting
Again, encouraging his participation is not a good idea.

Yes, it will promote the spread of free-thought and may even become fatally dangerous to your atheism......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AdminHambre, posted 11-23-2004 8:28 AM AdminHambre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 49 of 219 (162603)
11-23-2004 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2004 2:46 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
But since I've now made a new pact with Nosy would you still expect me to stand by my old pact with you?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 2:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 50 of 219 (162613)
11-23-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by YesthisisTrue
11-23-2004 4:49 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
I don't know if this is true or not, but if the OT doesn't require Messiah to be of David's bloodline, what's your point?

my point, if you can connect the dots a little, is that authors of the new testament felt a need for the messiah to be of david's royal lineage: ie, matthew believed this requirement was important enough to address. luke only care about actual relation. mark and john didn't care at all.

But,as I said, none of the thought-to-bes were named Immanuel.......so it's clearly not a requirement.

yes, neither was jesus. it doesn't apply, immanuel, if he existed, as a different messiah.

I don't know about Hebrew, but it certainly does in English.

notice in your king james that word "is" is in [brackets] a lot? it's a word that gets left out a lot.

Why do you keep bringing up the Assyrians? Clearly, in this day and age, even the Jews would admit that the prophecy doesn't LITERALLY speak of Jews being delivered from the Assyrians.......as they're currently free from the Assyrians, and yet they believe that Messiah has not yet come.

who is NOT immanuel. so you think prophesy can never be fulfilled? that's rather silly. the prophesy dealt with the messiah from the assyrians. the israelites are no longer under the control of the assyrians. how do you work this out in your mind to be "the passage is symbolic of something else?" it was as fulfilled as it was ever gonna get well before the birth of christ.

Not in THIS world, as was evidenced by the fact that the fella you speak of (I forget his name) was taken up to heaven......he wasn't granted fleshly immortality, he was just spared death.

eden was in this world (between the tigris and the euphrates). the tree of life was in eden. the tree of life granted immortality, according to god. human beings can become immortal, qed.

seriously, have you even read the bible? this isn't more than 3 chapters in...

Exactly........so were the old testament prophecies, largely, whether the Jews realized it or not.

uh, no. and if they're symbolic, why the rabid adherence to misreadings of them in nt? why does a virgin bear christ, when a) the prophesy can't relate to him and b) the verse doesn;t actually say virgin in hebrew?

matthew is not reading them as symbolic, he's reading them as literal. and doing a BAD job of it.

Oh, ok, when CHRISTIANS say something's literal, they're wrong, and when Jews do it, they're right.......

they did, afterall, write the book. look, if i put on my psychic hat here, and say "tomorrow you will go to winn dixie and buy a loaf of bread," and next week, you go to krisky kream and eat a donut, was i right? is one symbolic of the other?

no, it just doesn't apply. it's the wrong time, the wrong place, and the wrong thing. it's not an issue of "well, my prediction wasn't literal" it's more of the "fulfillment" just doesn't apply.

Once again, you guys should really study up before making incorrect statements like this.

do a street poll for me. 9 out of 10 christians will say they believe that story, probably more.

All depends on how you define canon........if you believe that it's as holy as any other holy scripture (as the Jews do), then you consider it canon.

maybe you should study up.

the torah is the most holy, followed by the nevi'im, followed by the ketuvim which is just barely canon. everything after that (talmud, midrashim, etc) are the writings of man in response to the torah, and are NOT holy.

Let's do that.

purpledawn said do it here. so pick a verse.

Obviously, Matthew was working off of a flawed memory with the verses he quoted.......does that really make a difference?

yes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by YesthisisTrue, posted 11-23-2004 4:49 AM YesthisisTrue has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 51 of 219 (162615)
11-23-2004 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by FlamingHomosexual
11-23-2004 8:45 AM


Re: Chin-sighting and Chinciting
Yes, it will promote the spread of free-thought and may even become fatally dangerous to your atheism......

you sir, are a flamingidiot. most of the people you're debatign with are christians. we're the ones demonstrating a little bit of thinking ability, you're passing the same crap we've heard in church all our lives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by FlamingHomosexual, posted 11-23-2004 8:45 AM FlamingHomosexual has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 52 of 219 (162620)
11-23-2004 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 5:57 AM


Re: Righteousness
purpledawn writes:

Don't just say it, show where Paul claimed to speak for God.Show where Paul says that all he is saying is from God.


I know where you are heading with this. First, you put the burden of proof on us to prove that the Bible is inspired. Why can't you just show your learned sources that claim that it is not.

Atheism.org does not count. I have seen this issue (Biblical Inerrency) being debated and discussed, and am of the conclusion that it is a matter of belief. Each side has some validity, but no side has a monopoly on intelligence here. It is not merely a matter of a historic church with a flawed agenda to dupe humanity. The arguments for Scripture as canonical (Paul included) are sound...unless you approach the theologians with a defiance and a disdain for their conclusions.

Allow me to ask you Prurple Dawn==what is your position? Are you an atheist? Are you of claim to being a scholar of repute? Do you just like to debate and "win" by using the little list of common errors that theists make? It is one thing to knock a wall down...takes little skill. It is another to replace the bricks with a sound alternative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 5:57 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 53 of 219 (162621)
11-23-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by arachnophilia
11-23-2004 10:32 AM


Respect
you sir, are a flamingidiot

This is not in compliance with the forum guidelines. Thank you for refraining in future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by arachnophilia, posted 11-23-2004 10:32 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 54 of 219 (162623)
11-23-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
11-23-2004 9:13 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
I think I see the parable...yes, the Jews expect God to honor the pact. Dispensationalism, however, does not teach that the old Kingdom will not occur. It has just been put on hold. God has unfinished business with Israel. According to classic Mid Dispensational belief, the rapture of the church will occur before God again turns to Israel.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 9:13 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 2:37 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2910 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 55 of 219 (162640)
11-23-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
11-22-2004 7:26 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
jesus is yehoshua, or joshua

I'm curious. In Hewbrew their names were spelled the same? If so do you know why they are not translated the same in English language Bibles then?

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 11-22-2004 7:26 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by arachnophilia, posted 11-23-2004 3:57 PM lfen has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1690 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 219 (162666)
11-23-2004 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2004 11:00 AM


Re: Righteousness
quote:
First, you put the burden of proof on us to prove that the Bible is inspired.
I did not ask you to prove that the Bible is inspired. Writings usually are inspired whether they are religious or otherwise. Inspiration is not the issue.

If it helps any, I have over 40 years of Christianity under my belt, which includes some Church Administration and intense Bible study.

While studying the covenants, I found that the covenants that God made with the Jews DO NOT have an end date or condition according to the OT.

So when you make a statement that says the Jews rejected God's offer and that the same offer was given to the Gentiles, my question is what offer? What was the offer?

If Paul was inspired to create a religion for the Gentiles, great, I have no problem with that. It isn't a new idea. In Jewish History, even before Jesus was born, Jewish reformist were trying to get Judaism to lighten up so they would mesh better with the Greeks.

I do have a problem with the claim that the Jews rejected God's offer, that their covenant with God is over, or that they now must change and accept another way to God. It is not in the Hebrew Bible nor is it presented by Jesus.

I do expect Christians to backup their dogma and tradition with Biblical support, especially when it casts asperions on another culture or religion.

I don't believe Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews, so who did? Where? When?

Just because a person doesn't support all the dogma and tradition associated with Christianity doesn't mean that person is an atheist.

I had this thread put in the accuracy and inerrancy because I want Biblical backup that shows God made an offer and the Jews rejected it.

I don't want answers of opinion and belief.
I don't want Paul's opinions and belief, unless you can show me that he was speaking words that God told him to say.

That's why I said to you that if you had more than just opinion and belief we could continue the discussion in this thread.

Unless I missed the fine print, I am not required to believe in Paul or his writings for eternal life.

So if you wish to continue this discussion, please show me where the Jews rejected an authentic offer from God.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 219 (162670)
11-23-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 1:27 PM


Re: Righteousness
Purpledawn writes:

I don't believe Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews, so who did? Where? When?

Acts 9:13-16 says:

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Is this not evidence that God used Paul to speak for him?

Edit: Added a space.

This message has been edited by dpardo, 11-23-2004 02:46 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 58 of 219 (162685)
11-23-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2004 11:03 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Dispensationalism, however, does not teach that the old Kingdom will not occur.

Ah, a contrivence of man to prove a strongly held point of view.

But that is something outside anything we have discussed. Here, by bringing up Dispensationalism, you are trying to revise the terms of a pact, a pact made between other independant individuals.

The stories of the Rapture are IMHO simply more obfuscation and an attempt to become exclusionary.

GOD made a pact with the Jews.

GOD made a pact with the Christians.

They are not related in anyway.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 11:03 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 219 (162692)
11-23-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 1:27 PM


Re: Righteousness
Purpledawn writes:

Unless I missed the fine print, I am not required to believe in Paul or his writings for eternal life.

What about the Holy Ghost who sent him?

Acts 13:2-49 says:

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
14 ¶ But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 ¶ And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Emphasis mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 1:27 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 4:36 PM dpardo has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1690 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 219 (162693)
11-23-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by dpardo
11-23-2004 1:49 PM


Re: Righteousness
Excellent, but now I'm afraid you are going to get annoyed with me again.

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

There is a difference between speaking of God and speaking for God.

Who is speaking; God or Jesus? The word Lord doesn't really specify.
In Acts 9:17 we have...

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

To me this would indicate that Jesus was speaking to Ananias, not God. So Jesus gave Paul the authority to bring the name of Jesus before the Gentiles etc.

Not quite the same as speaking for God and declaring Judaism obsolete.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
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