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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 219 (162670)
11-23-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 1:27 PM


Re: Righteousness
Purpledawn writes:

I don't believe Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews, so who did? Where? When?

Acts 9:13-16 says:

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Is this not evidence that God used Paul to speak for him?

Edit: Added a space.

This message has been edited by dpardo, 11-23-2004 02:46 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 1:27 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 3:44 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 67 by ramoss, posted 11-23-2004 7:00 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 219 (162692)
11-23-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 1:27 PM


Re: Righteousness
Purpledawn writes:

Unless I missed the fine print, I am not required to believe in Paul or his writings for eternal life.

What about the Holy Ghost who sent him?

Acts 13:2-49 says:

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
14 ¶ But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 ¶ And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Emphasis mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 1:27 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 4:36 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 219 (162766)
11-23-2004 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by purpledawn
11-23-2004 4:36 PM


Re: Holy Ghost
Purpledawn writes:

Jesus warns against speaking against the Holy Spirit in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but I haven't read anything that requires belief in the Holy Spirit for eternal life.

I believe I understand what you are seeking.

You would like scriptures where God The Father speaks to your questions.

But, indulge me for a moment here, if Jesus is resurrected, as he is presented in the New Testament, then we have every reason to believe that everything he preached and taught is true. For if he had been a false prophet, God would not have resurrected him.

Jesus taught about God's plan of salvation and the New Covenant. His teaching is consistent with the God of the Old Testament. As the prophet Jeremiah said:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31:31-35
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 4:36 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 2:36 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 219 (162775)
11-23-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ramoss
11-23-2004 6:38 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Ramoss writes:

Next, as far as can be determined, Jesus was not married, and did not have children (see Ezek 46:16-17). Thus he is disqualified that way too.

Ezekiel 46:16-17 does not reference the Messiah.

The term "prince" refers to the leaders of Israel. Ezekiel 45:8-9 says:

8 In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes.
9 ¶ Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.

You also said:

Ramoss writes:

Well, for Jesus to be the seed of david, he would have to be from the direct unbroken MALE line, decended from Solomon. Since Jesus was
not Joesphes son, that disqalifies him there.

You state that he was not Joseph's biological son but neglect to mention his miraculous virgin birth?

Lastly,

You said:

And, for that matter, Jesus was not called 'Emanual' in his lifetime.. strike two.

Where does it say that he had to be called Emmanuel in his lifetime? We call him that NOW.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ramoss, posted 11-23-2004 6:38 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 11-24-2004 3:10 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 77 by ramoss, posted 11-24-2004 8:35 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 219 (162978)
11-24-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by purpledawn
11-24-2004 2:36 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Purpledawn writes:

What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener?

Genesis 15:13 says:

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Why did God tell Abraham that his seed would eventually serve Egypt and be afflicted four hundred years?

Why does God tell anyone anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 2:36 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 11-24-2004 4:22 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 7:35 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 93 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 11:37 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 219 (163016)
11-24-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
11-24-2004 4:22 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Arachnophilia writes:

in fact, i seriously doubt it was written during moses's lfietime as well. the best date i can find is about 600 -- in BABYLONIAN captivity.

May I see your evidence for this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 11-24-2004 4:22 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by arachnophilia, posted 11-25-2004 1:24 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 219 (163036)
11-24-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by purpledawn
11-24-2004 7:35 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Purpledawn writes:

Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience.

It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.

What then do you say about the Messianic prophesies by the prophets?

From a Christian perspective, they were not fulfilled till Christ.

From a Jewish perspective, they have not been fulfilled even to this day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 7:35 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 6:09 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 219 (163189)
11-25-2004 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by arachnophilia
11-25-2004 1:24 AM


Re: babylonian genesis
Arachnophilia writes:

when were the chaldeans in ur? about 900-600 bc.

Are you also claiming that people known as Chaldeans could not have been in Ur during Abraham's time?

it's entirely too much of a coincidence for there to be a project to rebuild the babel ziggurat while the hebrews are there for it to NOT indicate that it influenced the writing.

Conspiracy theory?

now, i can't begin to point out all of the anti-babylon subtext in genesis.

Is surprises you that a people that do not worship the one true God (as presented in the Bible) would be cast in negative light in the Bible?

From what I have read of your posts, I can't begin to point out all the anti-bible rhetoric.

It seems that you sir are engaged in the occupation of finding as much data as you can to cast doubt on the bible. There are plenty of others who strive to do the same thing so that they can justify their way of living, which, not suprisingly, is in open rebellion to God's word.

Whatever you search for, you will find. If you look for support for any particular point of view, you will find it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by arachnophilia, posted 11-25-2004 1:24 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by arachnophilia, posted 11-26-2004 4:48 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 101 by ramoss, posted 11-26-2004 7:50 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 219 (163223)
11-25-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ramoss
11-25-2004 11:37 AM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
1) When was the book of Genesis written down? After the fact writing of
something of course is not a prophecy.

Your statement of after-the-fact-writing of Genesis is, in fact, not a fact.

2) There is no archelogical evidence that there WAS an Exodus, although I am sure there were Cannanites in Egypt, and familar with Egypt.

There was, previously, no archeological evidence of Ninevah either.

We are not yet finished discovering everything there is to discover or uncover.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 11:37 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 6:05 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 6:36 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 8:30 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 219 (163245)
11-25-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by purpledawn
11-25-2004 6:36 PM


Re: Genesis 14:14
While you are speculating, why not just speculate that it was a different Dan?

My son was born in Glendale.

-Glendale, California, not Glendale, Arizona.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 6:36 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 219 (163330)
11-26-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-25-2004 8:30 PM


Re: Prophecy after the Fact
Purpledawn writes:

To put it simply, if you believe that Moses wrote the Torah, then anything God said to Abraham was written down after the fact.

That it was written down after the fact I do accept.

The point you are missing, though, is that if you believe the words, then God told Abraham something that would happen beyond his lifetime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2004 7:16 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 108 by arachnophilia, posted 11-29-2004 1:47 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 219 (163985)
11-29-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by purpledawn
11-29-2004 10:02 AM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

In Message 57 dpardo provided Acts 9:13-16 as evidence that Paul spoke for God.

My response in Message 60 shows that Acts 9:17 explains that Jesus is the speaker, not God. Paul was allowed to bring the name of Jesus before the Gentiles, not speak for God.

I apologize for taking so long to continue on this topic. I had a busy weekend.

I will try and follow up on our discussion later on today or tomorrow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by purpledawn, posted 11-29-2004 10:02 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 219 (164113)
11-30-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by purpledawn
11-29-2004 10:02 AM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

In Message 57 dpardo provided Acts 9:13-16 as evidence that Paul spoke for God.

My response in Message 60 shows that Acts 9:17 explains that Jesus is the speaker, not God. Paul was allowed to bring the name of Jesus before the Gentiles, not speak for God.

Why the distinction between God and Jesus here though?

If Jesus is who he said he is (and that he and the father are one), then Jesus' message is God the Father's message.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by purpledawn, posted 11-29-2004 10:02 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 11-30-2004 3:12 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 219 (164114)
11-30-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ramoss
11-29-2004 9:26 PM


Re: Summary
Ramoss writes:

And one point you did not bring up , the concept of 'SALVATION' in the Jewish religion is not the same as the Christian religion. The concept of SALVATION is for THIS life, not for a hypothetical next one.

Can you explain what the Jewish religion's concept of Salvation is, as you understand it?

Remember that (in the OT) Enoch and Elijah were taken by God. Where were they taken?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ramoss, posted 11-29-2004 9:26 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ramoss, posted 11-30-2004 11:40 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 219 (164141)
11-30-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by purpledawn
11-30-2004 3:12 PM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

Why would you think that "I and the Father are one" means one entity, as opposed to Jesus being in agreement with God?

I do not believe they are one and the same.

I believe, as I think you also believe, that Jesus' will is in agreement with God the Father's will.

Acts 13:2 says:

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

God The Holy Ghost sends Saul (Paul) on his mission to carry this message as well.

Edit: Grammar.

This message has been edited by dpardo, 11-30-2004 04:46 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 11-30-2004 3:12 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by purpledawn, posted 11-30-2004 6:37 PM dpardo has responded

  
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