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Author Topic:   Evolution will always be a theory existant
JJboy
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 8 (16321)
08-31-2002 1:17 AM


Evolution will never be disproved and not taught in schools, broadcasted by the popular media, and so on. Not that I can see. Not that I am a genius or anything. As long as people do not want a God, they will always try to explain how they came into existence without him. Not that this is a surprise or anything. I am not accusing anyone either. I just find it sad. If God hadn't saved me, I know I would be on the other side of the debate. Anyway, that is my opinion. It was kinda spurred by Peter What-his-face saying that Evolution had fallen. It can float, Peter.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nator, posted 08-31-2002 2:05 AM JJboy has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 2 of 8 (16335)
08-31-2002 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JJboy
08-31-2002 1:17 AM


quote:
Originally posted by JJboy:
[B] Evolution will never be disproved[/QUOTE]
...nor proved. Nothing in science is ever "proved", once and for all, like a mathematical proof. Evidence either supports a claim or it doesn't, but all theories are open to be changed if new/better evidence is found in the future.
quote:
and not taught in schools, broadcasted by the popular media, and so on.
Why on Earth shouldn't a extremely well-supported unifying scientific theory be taught in schools and broadcasted on the media?
quote:
Not that I can see. Not that I am a genius or anything. As long as people do not want a God, they will always try to explain how they came into existence without him.
What a strange thing to say.
A majority of scientists believe in God. The VAST majority of people in the world belive in God, as well. Most religions have no problem with Biology or science. It's only a few American extreme fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups which have problems with it.
Science says nothing at all about God. Science ignores all of the supernatural, because it is not designed to deal with it.
[QUOTE]Not that this is a surprise or anything. I am not accusing anyone either. I just find it sad. If God hadn't saved me, I know I would be on the other side of the debate. Anyway, that is my opinion. It was kinda spurred by Peter What-his-face saying that Evolution had fallen. It can float, Peter.[/B]
Who told you that God requires you to turn your back on scientific knowledge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JJboy, posted 08-31-2002 1:17 AM JJboy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 9:19 AM nator has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 8 (16343)
08-31-2002 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nator
08-31-2002 2:05 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
A majority of scientists believe in God.
A growing number of scientists are atheists.
The VAST majority of people in the world belive in God, as well.
Actually no, a vast majority of people in the world don't believe in God. Most believe in a god(s). Not everyone believes in the same god(s).
Most religions have no problem with Biology or science. It's only a few American extreme fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups which have problems with it.
Exactly. As I've stated before American science education is a joke.
Science says nothing at all about God. Science ignores all of the supernatural, because it is not designed to deal with it.
Yes, it only deals with that which actually exists.
Who told you that God requires you to turn your back on scientific knowledge?
At one time the Church had tried to use science to prove the existence of their god, but when they eventually found out that it could only show the opposite they worked to suppress science by any means necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nator, posted 08-31-2002 2:05 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by nator, posted 08-31-2002 11:18 AM nos482 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 4 of 8 (16344)
08-31-2002 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nos482
08-31-2002 9:19 AM


Originally posted by nos482:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
A majority of scientists believe in God.
A growing number of scientists are atheists.
No, that's not true. The percentage of scientists who believe in god has held roughly the same for almost 100 years.
What is the source for your assertion?
I would like to correct myself, though, by stating that 40% of scientists believe in god, not a majority as previously stated.
quote:
The VAST majority of people in the world belive in God, as well.
Actually no, a vast majority of people in the world don't believe in God. Most believe in a god(s). Not everyone believes in the same god(s).
Um, this counts as believing in supernatural, supreme forces of some kind, which falls under tha definition of "god". If we are talking about Protestant Christians, then you should have said so.
quote:
Most religions have no problem with Biology or science. It's only a few American extreme fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups which have problems with it.
Exactly. As I've stated before American science education is a joke.
So, what is your point?
quote:
Science says nothing at all about God. Science ignores all of the supernatural, because it is not designed to deal with it.
Yes, it only deals with that which actually exists.
Not quite correct. It deals with what we can sense with our five senses. Other things might exist ouside of this, but we have no way to tell. It is a philosophical distinction, but important.
quote:
Who told you that God requires you to turn your back on scientific knowledge?
At one time the Church had tried to use science to prove the existence of their god, but when they eventually found out that it could only show the opposite they worked to suppress science by any means necessary.
Right. So I can't tell if you are arguing for science or against it.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 9:19 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 2:34 PM nator has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 8 (16345)
08-31-2002 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nator
08-31-2002 11:18 AM


Originally posted by schrafinator:
No, that's not true. The percentage of scientists who believe in god has held roughly the same for almost 100 years.
What is the source for your assertion?
I seem to remember seeing on a news report something about the number of scientists who didn't believe in god was going up.
I would like to correct myself, though, by stating that 40% of scientists believe in god, not a majority as previously stated.
So, a majority of them are not theists.
Um, this counts as believing in supernatural, supreme forces of some kind, which falls under tha definition of "god".
You had said God and it is mainly only Christians who refer to their deity as 'G'od.
So, what is your point?
My point is that because of their sorry state of science education that nonsense like creationism could ever be concidered to be a valid science. It is the same as saying that alchemy and astrology are real science as well.
Not quite correct. It deals with what we can sense with our five senses. Other things might exist ouside of this, but we have no way to tell. It is a philosophical distinction, but important.
Philosophy is not hard science and is only one step in the process. Too many seem to think that this is all they need to "prove" what they say is true.
Right. So I can't tell if you are arguing for science or against it.
For science. When the Church was at the height of its power was mainly during the Dark Ages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nator, posted 08-31-2002 11:18 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by gene90, posted 08-31-2002 5:17 PM nos482 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 6 of 8 (16347)
08-31-2002 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nos482
08-31-2002 2:34 PM


[QUOTE][B]So, a majority of them are not theists.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Who cares? The original point was that all scientists were atheists and clearly they are not. The large minority indicates that evolution and atheism are not the same and are not necessarily even related.
It looks to me like you're trying to make an argument-from-authority case in favor of atheism just because most scientists are (presumably) not theists. It doesn't matter to me what most American scientists are. After all, most Southern Baptist preachers are probably not evolutionists. But that will not influence my personal religious faith nor will it influence my academic or professional interests in science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 2:34 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 6:27 PM gene90 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 8 (16350)
08-31-2002 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by gene90
08-31-2002 5:17 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]So, a majority of them are not theists.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Who cares? The original point was that all scientists were atheists and clearly they are not. The large minority indicates that evolution and atheism are not the same and are not necessarily even related.
It looks to me like you're trying to make an argument-from-authority case in favor of atheism just because most scientists are (presumably) not theists. It doesn't matter to me what most American scientists are. After all, most Southern Baptist preachers are probably not evolutionists. But that will not influence my personal religious faith nor will it influence my academic or professional interests in science.

Actually he had made that sort of arguement. I had only said that an increasing number were becoming atheistic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by gene90, posted 08-31-2002 5:17 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by gene90, posted 08-31-2002 7:13 PM nos482 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 8 of 8 (16351)
08-31-2002 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nos482
08-31-2002 6:27 PM


[QUOTE][B]Schrafinator: A majority of scientists believe in God.[/QUOTE]
[B]
Here the point is made against the original claim that scientists resort to evolution to escape God. I think this information that a large minority are theists refutes it. I would like to post a link but it was on Forbidden which is now http://www.humanrightsandtolerance.net which lacks most of the information the old site had.
[QUOTE][B]The VAST majority of people in the world belive in God[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Somewhat true statement if we would replace God (implying monotheism) with "higher powers" and I doubt the poster intends to argue in favor of theism but this does smack of herd mentality or argument from authority. Anyway the point is lost when we find that most people aren't Christians.
[QUOTE][B]Most religions have no problem with Biology or science.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I don't like this either because most religions (judged by number of faiths regardless of their number of members) and most religious people (judged by population) are probably both in poorly developed, non-affluent nations that lack good education or even much exposure to science or biology. It is true though that most religious systems in developed nations with good science education (EU, Japan, etc.)
will reject YECism. But this again smacks of argument from authority, even though I think it has some weight.
[QUOTE][B]It's only a few American extreme fundamentalist Protestant Christian groups which have problems with it.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That is incorrect. In another thread there is a brief discussion of an Islamic creationist from Turkey who will be speaking in DC soon. There is also a Vedhic YEC running around somewhere in the states and there is also a Mormon YEC (LDS is not Protestant) running around. From my personal experience I believe there are Catholic YECs here as well, at least the occasional one that has been immersed in evangelical, conservative Protestants too long.
[QUOTE][B]Actually he had made that sort of arguement.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Sorry for pinning that on you.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 08-31-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nos482, posted 08-31-2002 6:27 PM nos482 has not replied

  
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