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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 91 of 219 (163143)
11-25-2004 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by dpardo
11-24-2004 8:11 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
You would need to tell me which ones you consider to be Messianic Prophecies.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 8:11 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 219 (163189)
11-25-2004 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by arachnophilia
11-25-2004 1:24 AM


Re: babylonian genesis
Arachnophilia writes:

when were the chaldeans in ur? about 900-600 bc.

Are you also claiming that people known as Chaldeans could not have been in Ur during Abraham's time?

it's entirely too much of a coincidence for there to be a project to rebuild the babel ziggurat while the hebrews are there for it to NOT indicate that it influenced the writing.

Conspiracy theory?

now, i can't begin to point out all of the anti-babylon subtext in genesis.

Is surprises you that a people that do not worship the one true God (as presented in the Bible) would be cast in negative light in the Bible?

From what I have read of your posts, I can't begin to point out all the anti-bible rhetoric.

It seems that you sir are engaged in the occupation of finding as much data as you can to cast doubt on the bible. There are plenty of others who strive to do the same thing so that they can justify their way of living, which, not suprisingly, is in open rebellion to God's word.

Whatever you search for, you will find. If you look for support for any particular point of view, you will find it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by arachnophilia, posted 11-25-2004 1:24 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by arachnophilia, posted 11-26-2004 4:48 AM dpardo has not yet responded
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 93 of 219 (163206)
11-25-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by dpardo
11-24-2004 2:57 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
You have to remember several things.

1) When was the book of Genesis written down? After the fact writing of
something of course is not a prophecy.
2) There is no archelogical evidence that there WAS an Exodus, although I am sure there were Cannanites in Egypt, and familar with Egypt.

This message has been edited by ramoss, 11-25-2004 11:54 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 2:57 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 1:10 PM ramoss has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 219 (163223)
11-25-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ramoss
11-25-2004 11:37 AM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
1) When was the book of Genesis written down? After the fact writing of
something of course is not a prophecy.

Your statement of after-the-fact-writing of Genesis is, in fact, not a fact.

2) There is no archelogical evidence that there WAS an Exodus, although I am sure there were Cannanites in Egypt, and familar with Egypt.

There was, previously, no archeological evidence of Ninevah either.

We are not yet finished discovering everything there is to discover or uncover.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 11:37 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 6:05 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 6:36 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 8:30 PM dpardo has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 95 of 219 (163238)
11-25-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dpardo
11-25-2004 1:10 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
However, people have been trying for over 100 years to find traces of it in the desert where it is claimed the Israeli's wandered. When you have searched enough, the absense of evidence IS indeed evidence of absense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 1:10 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 219 (163242)
11-25-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dpardo
11-25-2004 1:10 PM


Genesis 14:14
quote:
Your statement of after-the-fact-writing of Genesis is, in fact, not a fact.

Genesis 14:14 (NIV)
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he led out his trained men, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Judges 18
27 Then they took what Micah had made and the priest who had belonged to him, and came to Laish, to a people quiet and secure, and struck them with the edge of the sword; and they burned the city with fire.

28 And there was no one to deliver them, because it was far from Sidon and they had no dealings with anyone, and it was in the valley which is near Beth-rehob. And they rebuilt the city and lived in it.

29 They called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father who was born in Israel; however, the name of the city formerly was Laish.

This section from Judges supposedly takes place after the death of Samson. More than 200 years after Moses.


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 Message 94 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 1:10 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 6:53 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 219 (163245)
11-25-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by purpledawn
11-25-2004 6:36 PM


Re: Genesis 14:14
While you are speculating, why not just speculate that it was a different Dan?

My son was born in Glendale.

-Glendale, California, not Glendale, Arizona.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 6:36 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 98 of 219 (163257)
11-25-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dpardo
11-25-2004 1:10 PM


Prophecy after the Fact
You didn't like the Dan connection?

To put it simply, if you believe that Moses wrote the Torah, then anything God said to Abraham was written down after the fact.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 1:10 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 11-26-2004 5:33 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 102 by dpardo, posted 11-26-2004 1:21 PM purpledawn has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 207 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 99 of 219 (163276)
11-26-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by dpardo
11-25-2004 10:46 AM


Re: babylonian genesis
Are you also claiming that people known as Chaldeans could not have been in Ur during Abraham's time?

seeing as how we have no archaeological evidence that even existed until about that time, yes i am. like i said, awfully coincidental that the chaldeans ruled ur around 600 bc.

Conspiracy theory?

do i look like mel gibson to you?

in order for the text to have been compiled earlier, you'd need a conspiracy. the evidence just does not support it.

Is surprises you that a people that do not worship the one true God (as presented in the Bible) would be cast in negative light in the Bible?

not at all. the bible takes shots at LOTS of people. the story of lot's daughters and his bastard children takes a shot at two neighbors (who btw also didn't exist in the time of moses...)/ but it takes an especially strong negative light with babylon. why? not assyria. who concquered the norther kingdom?

why not EGYPT, if it was written by moses?

From what I have read of your posts, I can't begin to point out all the anti-bible rhetoric.

the only parts of the bible i'm against are the epistles and the book of john. other than that, i quite like the bible. i find it interesting. if i didn't, i wouldn't post here, read the bible, or take classes in it. in fact, one of my goals for the future is to learn hebrew...

pointing out problems with other people's readings of the text is not anti-bible.

It seems that you sir are engaged in the occupation of finding as much data as you can to cast doubt on the bible.

i search for truth. if i thought the bible was a worthless document, i would say so and be done with it. something in the book of genesis struck home with me many years ago, ringed of truth. you know the feeling, i'm sure. tingles and goosebumps. and for that reason, i became a christian after years of militant athiesm. not even agnosticism, i was a hardcore athiest.

do i doubt the bible? yes. there are problems with it. inconsistencies, errors, theological changes, and many, many interpretations. personally, i don't give a damn that it has problems. so what if it's a bit contradictory? what someone said about god 3000 years ago means very very little to my faith and my relationship with god. but i do think it's a little fun to watch the literalists squirm.

There are plenty of others who strive to do the same thing so that they can justify their way of living, which, not suprisingly, is in open rebellion to God's word.

yes, and the apostle paul was one of them. he supported "open rebellion to god's word" in the form of the law. do shave? get hair cuts? have bacon? ride a bicycle on saturdays? you're in open rebellion to god's word. how do you justify your way of living? you must think some of the bible doesn't apply to you.

Whatever you search for, you will find. If you look for support for any particular point of view, you will find it.

true. the bible represents a myriad different view points. this is a problem if you read it literally as a single consistent document. but like i said, i have no problems with it.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-26-2004 05:24 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 10:46 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 207 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 100 of 219 (163280)
11-26-2004 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-25-2004 8:30 PM


Re: Prophecy after the Fact
To put it simply, if you believe that Moses wrote the Torah, then anything God said to Abraham was written down after the fact.

i was busy laughing at how obvious this was, and then i thought about it.

i don't believe moses wrote the torah. i'm positive he didn't write any of deuteronomy, and i don't think he would have had much to do with genesis.

however, the torah shows signs of five distinct authors. some are much later (like the d and p authors). but who wrote j? e? h? how old are the sources of these documents?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2004 10:06 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3112
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 101 of 219 (163289)
11-26-2004 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by dpardo
11-25-2004 10:46 AM


Re: babylonian genesis
No.. hardly a conspiracy theory. Anytime there is two cultures that are sitting side by side, of COURSE they inflence each other. DOH...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 10:46 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 219 (163330)
11-26-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-25-2004 8:30 PM


Re: Prophecy after the Fact
Purpledawn writes:

To put it simply, if you believe that Moses wrote the Torah, then anything God said to Abraham was written down after the fact.

That it was written down after the fact I do accept.

The point you are missing, though, is that if you believe the words, then God told Abraham something that would happen beyond his lifetime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-25-2004 8:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2004 7:16 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 108 by arachnophilia, posted 11-29-2004 1:47 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 103 of 219 (163334)
11-26-2004 1:50 PM


T o p i c ?
Is this thread at all on topic now? I haven't been following closely enough to tell.

If not perhaps someone can start a thread with an appropriate title and we can close this one.


Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2004 6:59 AM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 104 of 219 (163435)
11-27-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by AdminNosy
11-26-2004 1:50 PM


Re: T o p i c ?
For the most part, if you ignore the InfiltratorOfManyNames addition to the thread, it is still on topic.

Right now they are trying prophecy to show me the answer. Unfortunately they don't like following through and tend to cloud the issue with old arguments.

I was preparing a post to bring them back to the path.

Please don't close it yet.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by AdminNosy, posted 11-26-2004 1:50 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 219 (163436)
11-27-2004 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by dpardo
11-26-2004 1:21 PM


Re: Prophecy after the Fact
quote:
That it was written down after the fact I do accept.
Excellent!

quote:
The point you are missing, though, is that if you believe the words, then God told Abraham something that would happen beyond his lifetime.
Which served God's purpose for Abraham. God did not require Abraham to speak the information to anyone else of his time. Abraham heard from God, but did not speak for God in the verses you shared.

This is different than Jeremiah, who was speaking a message from God to the people of his time. If the prophecy is beyond the lifetime of the audience or the prophet, it serves no purpose.

So back to Message 80. There are no conditions for the Jews written in Jeremiah 31:31...
Why do you consider that this prophecy reflects the offer to the Jews?


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by dpardo, posted 11-26-2004 1:21 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
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