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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 303 (163486)
11-27-2004 12:13 PM


I was wondering what people thought about the existence of demons and angels, and their interactions with our daily lives. This is a topic that has been of interest to me for a very long time, and I have done a lot of reading and researching about it.
I believe that demons and angels are very real, and they are constantly influencing our daily lives whether we know it or not. A few of my more philosophical friends and I have come to the conclusion (not set in stone, of course) that demons do not actually posess anyone, i.e. they don't come take over someone's body and force them to do something, but they can go as far as having a complete but indirect control over someone by completely invading their mind and influencing them to do things.
I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there (basically, I can sense them as well as if I was physically seeing them, without actually seeing them). I also know my friend has seen demons in his mind, and he thought nothing of them until he saw a drawing made by some satanist and he could recognize the demons in the drawing.
A couple books I have read that pertain to demons are This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti (and the rest of that series), The Screwtape Letters by Clives Staples Lewis (both of these books are novels-- I don't put too much weight on Peretti's book, I put a good amount on Lewis', but not as much as on nonfiction), and Spirit of the Rainforest by Mark Andrew Ritchie (nonfiction, a great book).
Spirit of the Rainforest is one of the books I place the most weight on in my personal philosophy dealing with demons. It is actually written by a Yanomam (Amazon native tribe) shaman named Jungleman, and Ritchie translated, transcribled, and compiled it. The book describes the shamans' interactions with demons in graphic detail, and really shed some light on some of the finer aspects of the demons and their influence. The shaman each have their own demons that they always talk to, and they physically see them. In fact, some shaman apprently had trouble telling the real world from the spiritual one at times. It is a very good book for anyone interested in this subject.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 12:48 PM Xenocrates has replied
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-06-2004 12:56 AM Xenocrates has not replied
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 12-08-2004 3:34 PM Xenocrates has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 303 (163501)
11-27-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
11-27-2004 12:48 PM


Well, firstly, I intended this to be more of a philosphical discussion than a scientific one, as is appropriate for this topic. The evidence I am presenting right now is philosophical and based partly on personal experience and firsthand accounts of others with personal experience (I'll get some more information on these a bit later- I have to talk to some people to make sure I don't butcher anything they said).
I guess I can elaborate on the book Spirit of the Rainforest and the evidence contained within it. One of the main points of this book is that Jungleman and the other shaman knew about demons and had names for them and everything a long time before they were influenced by any modern culture (they hadn't come into any contact with the Bible or even with other non-Indians before). My point here is if demons and such are made up by men, how do these shaman not only know these demons but use them (basically cast spells)? They used these demons to kill people, specifically children, in other villages.
They also knew about God, who they called Yai Wana Naba Laywa (I forget the exact translation, but it's something about a spirit foreign to them/ their enemy), but started calling Him Yai Pada after the missionaries came (roughly means great creator spirit). When the missionaries described God and the demons to the shaman, the shaman recognized what they were talking about, and felt their demons fighting against what the missionaries were telling them.
And I apologize if this is a repeat of other topics-- I looked through the current topics, and I found some that were different enough to start a new topic-- I may have missed or overlooked one or two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 12:48 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 3:25 PM Xenocrates has not replied
 Message 7 by Demosthenes Fan, posted 12-05-2004 7:44 PM Xenocrates has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 303 (165525)
12-06-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
12-05-2004 8:36 PM


I'm afraid I have to agree with Ifen on this one; you don't have conclusive proof that God exists, and from a strictly scientific standpoint, I don't believe you ever will. I think that you must be careful trying to prove God's existence. This ultimately comes at least partly from the desire of humans to put God in a box, so to speak. In other words, the attemp to conclusively prove God's existence through scientific logic is trying to control God- to limit Him, if you will. God does not work in logical ways, and the supernatural can never be explained scientifically. Science cannot explain much of what I have experienced in the past few months.
Now, I am not innocent of this either-- I sometimes myself try to "prove" the existence of God, but I just have to remember to rely on faith and not on my own understanding. As Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." I have heard some pretty outstanding philosophical arguments for the existence of a higher power, and for God (which I would enjoy sharing in a different thread, or even by e-mail, if you are interested in hearing some), but even those are not conclusive.
You cannot prove God-- If you could, then faith would have no place in this world. God wants his people to know him by faith, and until the day I see Him face to face, that will be enough for me.
As for the subject of demons, I apologize for taking so long on that-- I am working on getting several first-person accounts together. I will post those as soon as I can (it might take a bit longer to get that all together).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 8:36 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 5:46 PM Xenocrates has not replied
 Message 50 by Angeldust, posted 03-02-2005 3:49 PM Xenocrates has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 303 (165752)
12-06-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by IrishRockhound
12-06-2004 8:49 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
(I apologize if the following quote wasn't copied accurately- the copy/paste on my computer gave up on me for some reason so I had to type the quote in manually)
IrishRockhound writes:
I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.
Firstly, yes, many people do use demons as a cop-out, but even the fact that demons influence our everyday lives is no excuse for immoral/wrong behavior. Personally, as a Christian, I take full responsibility for any sins I commit, because I know that if I go to God, He will give me the strength to overcome whatever anyone or anything throws at me. I am fully accountable to God and to a fellow Chritian (a specific one) for every single action I make. I agree that it is cheap to use demons as an excuse, so that's why I don't, and that's why that argument holds absolutely no weight for me.
As for "attributing [one's own] inner strength and heroism" to a "mythical entity", That viewpoint stems directly from arrogancy. I propose to you that YOU are attributing what very well may be supernatural help to someone's "inner strength". Call me cynical of you will, but there is no "inner strength" all my strength comes from God-- there is nothing outside of Him. I rely on God and on God alone for all the strength I need each and every day. Well, more accurately, I should say I try to rely on His strength, but, like everyone, I sometimes fail, and at those times, I am left weak and helpless because I have not relied on my only source of strength.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in Him, and I am helped." --Psalm 28:7a

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-06-2004 8:49 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:02 PM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 303 (166064)
12-07-2004 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by IrishRockhound
12-07-2004 1:02 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockHound writes:
It would be like believing that magical purple fairies can help me jump higher or run faster.
This shows that you are clearly not approaching this with an open mind by any means. I am willing to discuss this issue, but if you are being completely closed-minded, we will not get anywhere (sure, I'll try anyways). You may have not intended it to be so, but this is a blatant mockery of my personal beliefs, and, more importantly, a direct mockery of God. Yes, there have been times when I've had my doubts, but no one is perfect (myself least of all), and that's why I need Christ's redemption.
To directly address your analogy, no, it would be nothing like that, and yet everything like it. No, God is not "magic". No, I don't think God is purple. And God certainly isn't a faerie. God is the supreme, all-powerful being, the designer and creator of all, and most importantly, He is my Father, my King, and my friend. Maybe if you had personal experience that told you that these "faeries" could help you, I would be slightly more inclined to accept such an analogy, but you jsut made up some random thing off the top of your head, with no basis or foundation. There is a lot of foundation for believing that God exists, not the least of which is my own personal life experience. I know as a fact that I have no strength of my own to speak of. I know as a fact that God has helped me by giving me strength. Therefore, I know as a fact that God is real.
This strength I speak of is not physical strength, though God can, and at times, has granted that to me. It is the strength to fight temptations, to fight agains my own sinful nature and against the demons that try to tempt me. It is the strength to carry on when I have absolutely nothing left, to live another day when I feel like I have nothing left to live for. So am I delusional? Maybe. But whether or not I am does not change the fact that God is real and working in my life and the lives of other believers around me each and every day.
"And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea," it will happen.'" Matthew 21:21
And, yes, I believe that this is true-- completely and literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:02 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:31 AM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 303 (166066)
12-07-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IrishRockhound
12-07-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockhound writes:
Suit yourself. I prefer to believe that someday humanity will be the creator/definer of universes
Let me know as soon as you have acquired the strength to create new universes or been able to define the natural laws of one-- I'd like to see that
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 12-07-2004 11:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:05 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:34 AM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 303 (166067)
12-07-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-06-2004 9:20 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Phatboy writes:
Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself.
What we feel comfortable with has no effect on reality-- we cannot change something by feeling uncomfortable or comfortable with it. What is is. I know this may not have been what you meant, but I thought I'd like to point that out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 9:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-08-2004 12:39 AM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 303 (166078)
12-08-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
12-08-2004 12:39 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Phatboy writes:
The contrary world view . . . states that . . . [the] yardstick of authority is human wisdom.
Yes, but on that same token, human wisdom is different than human comfort. I just thought that I would point out that what we feel comfortable with shouldn't matter from any worldview (as far as argument/discussion is concerned).
As for the rest of your post, that is very true, and it is something that I remind myself of daily. I do sometimes tend to come across as harsher or more pointed than I really intend to be, so try to remember to take that into account when you read my posts. I also tend to be a little forceful on certain points absolutely essential to my faith, because I feel that an attack on those is an attack on my faith, my most valuable posession (if you can call it that...).
"But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. 'Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.' But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." 1 Peter 3:14-16
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 12-08-2004 12:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-08-2004 12:39 AM Phat has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 303 (166394)
12-09-2004 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IrishRockhound
12-08-2004 11:34 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockhound writes:
Not a forward-looking thinker then... I said 'humanity', and 'some day'.
I don't expect us to be able to do it tomorrow, and I find it annoying that you misconstrued my post to mean something nonsensical.
I think you took what I said a little too literally and missed the point entirely. How can you expect any human even in the infinitely distant future to change the physical laws that control this world? Show me any proof that it can be done, or even proof that we can break the physical laws of this universe (any "broken" rule is an allowance by another law already in place). There is no way we can make any technology that can move us backward through time, at least according to our understanding of the physical laws. Is someone succeeds in making such a machine, they will have not changed the laws, they will have shed light on how our understanding of the CURRENTLY EXISTING (existing as in "in the universe" not as in that we know about) laws us flawed, but no scientist will ever let you say that these "new" laws suddenly came into effect-- they have always been there, just hidden from our understanding.
You (or any human, or any other being bound by the laws of physics) can create or destroy matter or energy (this is different than interchanging matter and energy for each other, because it is understood that they are different forms of each other). If you (read: humanity) succeed in creating a machine whose efficience is over 100%, you will not have created a new law or changed the old one, you will jsut have discovered a flaw with our current understanding that has always been there since the creation (or, if you prefer, the mindless chance beginning) of the universe.
Again, don't take everything I say literally- look at the ideas and concepts behind my examples rather than the examples themselves (in other words, I don't expect you to create a time machine or an infinite source of energy to prove your point, but the concepts of those examples are still perfectly valid).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:34 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-11-2004 1:35 PM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 303 (167195)
12-11-2004 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by IrishRockhound
12-11-2004 1:35 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
You suggested in your previous post (earlier on in this duscussion) that the breaking of rules might occur, not specifically in jsut the post I was directly replying to.
IrishRockhound writes:
I find it annoying that you misconstrued my post to mean something nonsensical.
This is the misunderstanding I was reffering to-- I did not by any means misconstrue what you said-- I was just pointing out that we cannot break the laws that are in place or make any new ones that are not already in place (the same thing I explained at length in my last post).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-11-2004 1:35 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-12-2004 10:33 AM Xenocrates has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 303 (167196)
12-11-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by IrishRockhound
12-08-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockhound writes:
Ok, stop quoting scripture at me. I don't need or want to be converted, I'm not likely to read it anyway, and you don't have to prove to me that you believe in your god and he is the centre of your world and all that.
Firstly, the reason I was including scripture is that I often like to end my post in a verse, not necessarily to prove my point, but jsut because I like to incorporate scripture into everything I do (In other words, it is not an integral part of my argument, its just something I stuck on there cause I liked it). Secondly, I'll quote as much scripture as I like- I'm not asking you to read it, but if I want to quote it, who are you to tell me not to?
And no, I don't have to prove anything to you. God knows it already and that's all that's important to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:31 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AdminJar, posted 12-11-2004 2:59 PM Xenocrates has replied
 Message 46 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-12-2004 10:42 AM Xenocrates has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 303 (167211)
12-11-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AdminJar
12-11-2004 2:59 PM


Re: Just a small point
Thank you for the tip- I will try to remember to do that from now on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AdminJar, posted 12-11-2004 2:59 PM AdminJar has not replied

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