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Author Topic:   Is sin allowed into heaven?
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 35 (163420)
11-27-2004 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by JasonChin
11-22-2004 6:39 AM


Well, even though I find quoting all sorts of scientific facts, theories (and theorems) and statistics fascinating, I personally feel that they bog down what otherwise should be a matter for philosophy (but don't get me wrong- Feel free to use as much science as you want- just don't expect me to sit down and read it all through). Since I haven't posted here before, you should probably know that I'm a science student (a little bit of everything, mostly bio and some physics). But I'm first and foremost a strong Christian and a philosopher.
I will speak mostly from personal experience on this one. Over the past few months, I have been struggling with some specific issues in my life. I started talking to a friend about it, and I believe that God has used these issues in my life to draw me closer to my friend, and more importantly, to Himself. That is the meaning of life-- that is why we are born on this earth. If we were born straight into heaven, we would not be prepared for it-- our inherently rebellious spirits would not be compatible with God's perfect place for us. God uses the time on earth to teach us.
I know that a few months ago I would not have been ready to go to heaven. If I died, would God have let me into heaven? Yes, but I don't believe God would have let me die at that point. No, God cannot allow sin to enter heaven, but I know that I am justified by faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus, and that I am forgiven. I honestly can't speak for more than myself and a few of my closest friends and mentors, but I know that once I'm in heaven, God will not allow me to be tempted by any demonic influences (yes, I'm a believer in demons and angels and spiritual warfare and all that, but that's a matter for a different discussion-- one that I'd love to get into) and I will have no desire to sin, out of my own choosing.
In other words, I will have free will in heaven, and I will not sin out of my own free will which will be perfectly aligned to God's will. I can see how you might see that as losing my own free will, but it's not. Think of the one person you most love and care for on this earth, and how you would do anything to make them happy-- how perfectly at times, in some cases, your will aligns so perfectly with theirs, even though you still have your own free will. Now imagine loving and caring for that person so much that this was always the case. That is just a glimpse of the way that my will is going to be one with God's will in heaven.
I'm sorry if I repeated something too many times or if I abandoned science too much for philosophy, but it's 12:30am, My brain is done thinking about science for the day (too much thinking for one day can do that to me...), and im in an unusually philosophical mood right now... and pretty tired...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by JasonChin, posted 11-22-2004 6:39 AM JasonChin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by AdminNosy, posted 11-27-2004 1:49 AM Xenocrates has not replied
 Message 20 by happy_atheist, posted 11-27-2004 11:15 AM Xenocrates has replied

  
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 35 (163484)
11-27-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by happy_atheist
11-27-2004 11:15 AM


happy_atheist writes:
From what you wrote there I take it that you think our rebellious nature comes from being tempted by demons etc. (You're right that they're existence or lack thereof is not part of this topic. I don't believe they exist, but for the purpose of this debate i'll suspend disbelief. I'm sure there will be threads out there that discuss it, or if not maybe you could propose one in the Propose New Topics forum). And you believe that if we are not tempted by demons then we will not choose to sin.
No, you misunderstood me. I believe that demonic influence plays a large part in temptation, albeit the largest part, but there is also the element of mankind's inherent sinful nature, i.e. the fact that man is born sinful and has sunful desires completely originating within himself without outside (demonic or other) influences.
The reason that in heaven I don't believe that it will be an issue is, as I said in my previous post,
quote:
...I will have free will in heaven, and I will not sin out of my own free will which will be perfectly aligned to God's will.
Also see the rest of that paragraph (I didn't want to copy the entire paragraph).
happy_atheist writes:
But you also said somewhere that sin is physically (if thats the right word) not possible in heaven as it's not allowed. So what would happen if of your own choosing you did choose to sin in heaven. If you have free will then that is a possibility. If it's not a possiblity then it would be possible to create a situation on earth where free will existed but we would never be able to choose to sin, and sin would be uneseccary.
I'm a bit unsure of what you are saying. I take it you are asking why God dind't just create the perfect world in which no one would want to sin in the first place. In a way he did, in the Garden of Eden, but thaty's getting a bit off topic. As i said in my earlier post, God creates us on this world so that we can learn-- this world is a preperation for heaven. God wants two things of Christians on earth. Firstly, to learn and to grow in Him, and secondly, to win others over.
Yes, I guess God could have just created us perfect beings and not even allowed demons to exist in the first place, but I know there's a deeper meaning to it, and I don't claim to understand nearly everything God does, only the few things He reveals to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by happy_atheist, posted 11-27-2004 11:15 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by happy_atheist, posted 11-28-2004 8:05 AM Xenocrates has replied

  
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 35 (163661)
11-28-2004 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by happy_atheist
11-28-2004 8:05 AM


And I'm afraid you won't get any hard and fast answers. You do have to realize that I still spend a lot of time thinking about things like this, and on most things, I will never reach an answer.
happy_atheist writes:
Well I can see two alternatives as to what could happen here. Either your sinful nature has been completely removed (or maybe simply repressed by god so completely that the sinful part of you is no longer evident, which amounts to the same thing)...
Well, repressed is the wrong word (it has a bit of a negative connotation), but that's just semantics...
happy_atheist writes:
...so you are no longer "you", you are different somehow to what you are here on earth.
In a way, that's true-- and it's the part of me I don't want that I won't have anymore. It's along the same lines as the ressurection of the body, i.e., that in heaven, I will have a physical body after the resurrection of the saints, a.k.a. the second coming (some Christians will disagree with me on this, but its scriptural-- if you really want, I'll get some references on this) that will be perfect (no blemishes, no scars, no defects, no sickness, etc.). In other words, I will be ressurected spiritually in the same way.
happy_atheist writes:
If this is the case, I see no reason for you to ever have had that part of you in the first place. You could have been created with free will and no desire to sin in the first place. (This also removes the free will defense for evil that some people use, but that is a different topic).
This is the part that I, in all honestly, have has to think long and hard about to justify it in my mind, and the one answer I came up with (besides that I'll trust God knows what he's doing) is that God uses even our sinful nature to teach us (I'll tell you that much about the issues I was referring to earlier).
happy_atheist writes:
...meaning that anything that could be learned on earth could also be learned in heaven.
I don't see where you're going with this one-- yes, I believe that If I never learned to juggle here on earth, I will probably get a chance to learn it in heaven, if I really want to... but the main purpose of heaven is for the saints (using the term in its more general sense) to worship and glorify God for all eternity-- admittedly, this may sound a bit boring at first, but you really would have to experience true worship to understand it (something I have had the privelage of doing several times).
happy_atheist writes:
I'm simply running the concept through my head and seeing where it leaves me. I simply find the christian concept of heaven to not fit with the existence of the universe, and specifically the existence of people on earth. Obviously this is all purely hypotheitical so I don't expect any hard and fast answers.
Well, the only reasonable thing to do is to keep contemplating and I hope you someday understand-- at least you're keeping an open mind and are not violently opposed to even the mention of a god (much less of God) like some atheists I know (and something that bugs me just as much, if not more, is Christians who are willing to say nothing to atheists besides shouting in their faces that they're wrong and that they're gonna burn, etc.)
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 11-28-2004 09:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by happy_atheist, posted 11-28-2004 8:05 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by happy_atheist, posted 11-28-2004 2:30 PM Xenocrates has replied

  
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 35 (163711)
11-28-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by happy_atheist
11-28-2004 2:30 PM


happy_atheist writes:
This is where I will differ with you. I'm of the opinion that if a part of me was removed then I wouldn't be the same person, I would cease to be "me". I happen to like being "me", and all of what I am goes towards that.
So, are you saying that you believe you're perfect? If not, why aren't you? And what makes you imperfect? What if you had an uncontrollable urge to eat sweets and as a result of that, became obese and diabetic-- in that case would you be sad to be rid of that because it is "part of who you are"? And if you were able to give up that habit or that urge, would that make you any less yourself?
Yes, I know, my analogy is a bit farfetched/strange, but think about it anyways. If you knew what I have gone through the past couple months, you would know exactly what I'm talking about.
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 11-28-2004 03:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by happy_atheist, posted 11-28-2004 2:30 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by happy_atheist, posted 11-30-2004 7:58 AM Xenocrates has replied

  
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 35 (164196)
11-30-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by happy_atheist
11-30-2004 7:58 AM


Well, I disagree with much of what you said in your last post, but at this point that is based on difference in worldviews, and I can never convince you of my position with your current worldview (that's something I would love to discuss, and even though that relates to this thread, as it does to most, if not all, topics of philosophical nature, this is still not an appropriate place to discuss it).
In short, though (correct me if I'm wrong), you believe that there is no absolute standard of "perfection" in any sense whatsoever. I deduce from this that you most likely also see no absolutes in other circumstances (right and wrong and other such issues). I, on the other hand, even though in agreement with you on the fact that there are no absolutes of perfection in most areas (mental, physical, etc.), believe that there is an absolute of moral perfection. I also believe in an absolute and consistent right and wrong (not to be confused with always knowing 100% what the moral or right thing is to do in a situation).
In my opinion, we have reached the logical conclusion of this train of thought (as much as is appropriate to discuss in this specific thread). I would, however, be more than happy to continue discussing it if you have any more questions or concerns, or even to take it further in a more appropriate thread, or perhaps via a different form of communication (IM, PM, email, etc.).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by happy_atheist, posted 11-30-2004 7:58 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by happy_atheist, posted 12-01-2004 11:59 AM Xenocrates has not replied

  
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