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Author Topic:   An evolution paradox
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 22 of 31 (163884)
11-29-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Whirlwind
11-29-2004 10:53 AM


Re: Imagine...
What is the evidence that other animals lack an imagination? How developed would an animals theory of mind need to be to allow imagination, or do you not consider them to be related. Is an animal which can predict the behaviour or even understand the motivation of another animal using imagination?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Whirlwind, posted 11-29-2004 10:53 AM Whirlwind has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2004 11:38 AM Wounded King has replied
 Message 31 by Whirlwind, posted 11-30-2004 7:08 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 31 (163886)
11-29-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by thgar
11-18-2004 12:58 AM


But can we consider mere survival a success? Sure we will evolve over time, but what if we were to evolve smaller brain sizes as we progress further along into future species?
Oh my god!! I can see it happening already, Homo republicansis americanus.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. This post is for attemptedly humorous purposes only and should not be viewed as a personal attack by all American republicans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by thgar, posted 11-18-2004 12:58 AM thgar has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 25 of 31 (163902)
11-29-2004 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
11-29-2004 11:38 AM


Re: Imagine...
Is an animal that can find a real-world location when it's analog is pointed out on a map using imagination?
And of course the natural corollary of that, should someone who can't find their ass with both hands and a map really be allowed behind the wheel of a car? A question for our time I feel.
Yours (imagining my incipient road rage on the commute home),
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2004 11:38 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 26 of 31 (163907)
11-29-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
11-29-2004 11:38 AM


Re: Imagine...
But seriously.
Is an animal that can find a real-world location when it's analog is pointed out on a map using imagination?
Is this something you know to have been attempted or a purely hypothetical scenario? I can certainly imagine a mouse learning that if a certain part of a map was highlighted it would find food in a corresponding area, while still having no concept that the map itself is an abstract representation of the maze it was navigating.
I think this is something which would be very hard to test, but it certainly is an interesting question.
I think that what this really boils down to is, is there really any clear distinction between the capacity for abstract thought and the capacity for imagination and if so what?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2004 11:38 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2004 2:35 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 29 of 31 (164058)
11-30-2004 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
11-29-2004 2:35 PM


I'm pretty sure that I saw that as well, but there is a further level of abstraction between a scale model and a map. A scale model of a room is considerably more like the room itself than a plan of the room is.
One recent similar scale model based experiment with chimpanzees is documented in
Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) recognize spatial and object correspondences between a scale model and its referent.
Kuhlmeier VA, Boysen ST.
Psychol Sci. 2002 Jan;13(1):60-3.
n the present study, the contributions of spatial and object features to chimpanzees' comprehension of scale models were examined. Seven chimpanzees that previously demonstrated the ability to use a scale model as an information source for the location of a hidden item were tested under conditions manipulating the feature correspondence and spatial-relational correspondence between objects in the model and an outdoor enclosure. In Experiment 1, subjects solved the task under two conditions in which one object cue (color or shape) was unavailable, but positional cues remained. Additionally, performance was above chance under a third condition in which both types of object cues, but not position cues, were available. In Experiment 2, 2 subjects solved the task under a condition in which shape and color object cues were simultaneously unavailable. The results suggest that, much like young children, chimpanzees are sensitive to both object and spatial-relational correspondences between a model and its referent.
I would agree that if the mouse behaved as you described it would suggest that it was effectively interpreting the map. Perhaps a mouse in a maze situation would makes it harder than it needs to be though, mazes are pretty tricky to negotiate anyway.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2004 2:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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