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Author Topic:   A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 241 of 282 (164003)
11-29-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 9:18 PM


looky what I found!
quote:
My left foot pointed toward my right leg, and my right leg seemed a bit shorter than the left one.
I just found this picture of a 7 year old who had dislocated his hip after a skateboarding accident. The clinical report states the following:
Traumatic dislocations of the hip joint in children are uncommon orthopaedic injuries, constituting less than 10% of all traumatic hip dislocations 1 . It is usually seen in children in the pre-adolescent age group between seven and ten years 2 . Although it is commonly associated with high energy road traffic accidents, the soft pliable cartilage and generalized ligamentous laxity that comprise a child's acetabulum can lead to dislocation secondary to insignificant falls, as was evident in our case. A thorough search of literature reveals such dislocations to have been attributable to jogging, skiing, basketball and mini rugby 3 .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 9:18 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 10:17 PM nator has not replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 282 (164005)
11-29-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by nator
11-29-2004 9:39 PM


Re: About Comfort
It is because I don't remember SHARP pain that I leave open the possibility of it not being fractured. A fractured finger in high school put me straight on the ground and brought tears immediately to my eyes. Not saying I didn't have sharp pain and tears, I just don't remember it.
My mom recalls the doctor saying it appeared to be fractured to him based on how I walked, how the leg was bent, etc.
He figured surgery and therapy and a lifelong limp would result from the injury (the idea of my having a lifelong limp is what made my Mom upset and made her promise to God about visiting the elderly).
Perhaps it was dislocated and not fractured. I will consider using the word "injured" from now on in my relating this event.
But, of course, I can credit God with getting my leg back in place regardless of whether it were through my walking, through being manipulated by the technician, etc. (But I doubt this and consider it to have been healed miraculously regardless of the extent of the injury).
However, my memory of the event is fairly fuzzy; so, I wouldn't expect this to turn the world upside down . I thought for many years that the doctor had fixed my leg. (I went to the doctor hurting, I left the doctor feeling good). It was only years later, when I overheard mom and dad re-telling the event that I learned it had been a miraculous event.
The bigger miracle, to me, has always been the answer to Anna Barnes' prayer.

This message is a reply to:
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 282 (164007)
11-29-2004 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by nator
11-29-2004 9:50 PM


Re: looky what I found!
The leg does look twisted in a fashion similar to how mine had been. The caption doesn't mention anything about a twisted leg, though (unless I missed it). Nor does it indicate that dislocated hips are so easily manipulated back into place that it sometimes happens accidentally.
However, I certainly don't mind you examining my claim as you are. Not at all. I am willing to say it might have been a dislocated hip, of course (as mentioned in my above post, which I posted JUST after you posted your photo), as I don't recall sharp pain and there are no x-rays to confirm the diagnoses.
At least you are not accusing me or my parents of lying. I told this to one fellow (an atheist co-worker, we were fairly friendly with each other and had good discussions from time to time), and that was his reply...that my parents so wanted me to believe they made up this "miracle" to help me out. I am rarely offended, but I was a bit that time, I must say. I was also dumbfounded as he did not know my parents and knew me to be honest to a fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 9:50 PM nator has not replied

  
Whirlwind
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 282 (164072)
11-30-2004 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by NosyNed
11-29-2004 4:35 PM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
I think that is too big a question to address in a series of messageboard posts, but I'll give it a go!
As I've stated in earlier posts, I believe that the one thing that really seperates us from the animals is our power of imagination (that is a very broad generalisation, I'm sorry). This has allowed humans to become better scavengers. For example, I could tell you where food is by giving you directions. If we had no power of imagination, I would have to take you to the food. In some cases a time of drought follows a time of plenty. We can imagine a time of drought, so we could store water and food for that time. But with this power of imagination comes questions and experimentation. Of course, humans eventually asked questions such as "Where do we come from?" and "What is our purpose?". Hence religion (sorry for the huge abbreviation, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at).
It's also tough to imagine the mindset of people throughout history. In certain times and places, I'd have probably been killed for writing this post.
More from me later,
Whirlwind
PS Thanks to everyone who replies to my posts, its nice to know that someone is listening to me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2004 4:35 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by happy_atheist, posted 11-30-2004 7:44 AM Whirlwind has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 245 of 282 (164074)
11-30-2004 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Whirlwind
11-30-2004 7:25 AM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
Whirlwind writes:
For example, I could tell you where food is by giving you directions. If we had no power of imagination, I would have to take you to the food.
Bees can direct other bees to food without taking them there. Obviously I have no idea what goes on inside a bee's head, but I would guess the common opinion would be that they don't have imagination.
Also i've seen people talk of examples of studies on monkeys (chimps if I remember correctly), where the chimps formulated a hunting plan and gave each member of the group a role that they went off and performed out of sight of others. This was in a thread on here, about what makes humans seperate to animals. I don't know how true that is, but if it were true, would it constitute imagination? I would think it would.
I guess the problem with imagination is that we don't know what is going on in an animals head. Imagination is generally thought of as us creating images in our head that don't exist, or creating abstract ideas. We can see things such as birds building elaborate nests or doing dances with the sole purpose of attracting other birds, but I guess we can have no way of knowing what's actually going on in their minds.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-02-2004 2:55 AM happy_atheist has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 246 of 282 (164080)
11-30-2004 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 8:32 PM


Believe or Else
TheLiteralist claims,
quote:
Jesus doesn‘t seem to be one to use enticements to get followers
But as you quote Simon Peter saying, the disciples stick with him because they're gunning for eternal life. You admit that fear of possible punishment is good enough reason to get you to believe. This is Pavlovian conditioning, not mature reasoning. I once asked a Christian on these boards what he would do if God told him that no reward was in store for believers. Would he still believe if faith had to be its own reward? He emphatically responded that Jesus was obliged to reward His followers, and that seems to be the consensus among believers.
This basically reduces faith to the status of conditioned behavior. Say all you want about amoral, materialistic atheists, but at least admit that your aims are as materialistic as they get. You want eternal life, you want freedom from punishment, you want the perks of the sweet afterlife that your religion promises you. Otherwise you wouldn't believe, because there wouldn't be anything in it for you.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 8:32 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-30-2004 11:45 AM MrHambre has replied
 Message 248 by Dr Jack, posted 11-30-2004 11:48 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 282 (164117)
11-30-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by MrHambre
11-30-2004 8:26 AM


Re: Believe or Else
MrHambre writes:
Say all you want about amoral, materialistic atheists, but at least admit that your aims are as materialistic as they get.
I have noted that atheists clearly have the option to disregard warnings of eternal consequences for behavior in this life. I think I have also provided various reasons why I believe their conclusion that there is no God to be illogical (on this and other threads at EvC). Beyond this, I don't recall saying too much more about them ~ especially not here at EvC.
MrHambre writes:
Otherwise you wouldn't believe, because there wouldn't be anything in it for you.
I am not sure what you have me not believing in this case. Do you mean I wouldn't believe in God? If God had given no consequences for obedience or disobedience, then I certainly might have trouble making myself obey. But this would be no reason to doubt the existence of the Lawmaker (i.e., God). This is like people ignoring man-made laws that have no serious consequences associated with them. This doesn't mean the people don't believe there are lawmakers; they just have no motivation to obey such laws.
Or, do you mean I wouldn't believe there are consequences if God had not stated them? But if God does not state that there are consequences, why should I believe there are any? But He has, so I do.
Some people ignore legal laws with obvious consequences and do so knowing full well there are lawmakers. But you would be like one who doubts the existence of the lawmakers. Does it matter, here on earth, if the lawbreaker doesn't believe in the lawmakers (especially in the peculiar case where he has read at least some of the law)? Won't he still be prosecuted and punished if found guilty?
You have clearly demonstrated that you personally disapprove of how the God of the Bible chooses to do things. You have not disproved His existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by MrHambre, posted 11-30-2004 8:26 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by MrHambre, posted 11-30-2004 1:00 PM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 258 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 10:48 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 248 of 282 (164118)
11-30-2004 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by MrHambre
11-30-2004 8:26 AM


Re: Believe or Else
This basically reduces faith to the status of conditioned behavior. Say all you want about amoral, materialistic atheists, but at least admit that your aims are as materialistic as they get. You want eternal life, you want freedom from punishment, you want the perks of the sweet afterlife that your religion promises you. Otherwise you wouldn't believe, because there wouldn't be anything in it for you.
Just as a counter-point; my Dad was a Christian, but did not believe in heaven or any kind of afterlife.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by MrHambre, posted 11-30-2004 8:26 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-30-2004 11:56 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 282 (164119)
11-30-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Dr Jack
11-30-2004 11:48 AM


Re: Believe or Else
Just as a counter-point; my Dad was a Christian, but did not believe in heaven or any kind of afterlife.
I'm curious... and I don't mean this as a "nuh-uh! Your Dad wasn't a Christian, then!"... how does that work? Doesn't it leave a pretty big hole in the theology? I mean... the whole point of Jesus being sent to Earth was supposed to be so we had a shot at getting into heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Dr Jack, posted 11-30-2004 11:48 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2004 5:24 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 250 of 282 (164124)
11-30-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by TheLiteralist
11-30-2004 11:45 AM


Re: Believe or Else
TheLiteralist says,
quote:
Some people ignore legal laws with obvious consequences and do so knowing full well there are lawmakers. But you would be like one who doubts the existence of the lawmakers. Does it matter, here on earth, if the lawbreaker doesn't believe in the lawmakers (especially in the peculiar case where he has read at least some of the law)? Won't he still be prosecuted and punished if found guilty?
You have clearly demonstrated that you personally disapprove of how the God of the Bible chooses to do things. You have not disproved His existence.
It's not up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God. You're pushing your claims that God exists, that He has told everyone His rules, and that a great judgment awaits everyone in the afterlife. None of these assertions is supported by anything except your faith that they're true.
The least we can say about earthly laws is that we can confirm the existence of the lawmakers, the courts, and the prisons that create and enforce these laws. There is abundant evidence of the consequences of ignoring earthly laws. This evidence doesn't exist for God or His laws.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-30-2004 11:45 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 251 of 282 (164132)
11-30-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by TheClashFan
11-27-2004 4:27 PM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
TheClashFan writes:
He does not make us love Him because He wants us to choose to love Him. Would you prefer to be feared and be the reciever of false love, or would you wish to be the reciever of true love?
Are you saying that the Source of all Love would not be automatically loved by us once He revealed Himself? Is that an indication by you that you feel He is not able to earn (for lack of a better word) our love in the same way our parents do...through demonstration of caring and nurturing?
Pehaps not; since both Daniel, Isaiah and John felt complete fear in the presence of God....righteousness as filthy rags and all that.
Couldn't He just show up and create some food or take care of our hurts thus demonstrating how He cares? Show love and you get love.
Doesn't seem that tough to me.
I think His hiding out must have a different reason than just worry about people faking their love for Him.
This message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-30-2004 02:23 PM

Ok..Ok...but what's the duck have to do with it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by TheClashFan, posted 11-27-2004 4:27 PM TheClashFan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 252 of 282 (164284)
12-01-2004 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Dan Carroll
11-30-2004 11:56 AM


Re: Believe or Else
I'm curious... and I don't mean this as a "nuh-uh! Your Dad wasn't a Christian, then!"... how does that work? Doesn't it leave a pretty big hole in the theology? I mean... the whole point of Jesus being sent to Earth was supposed to be so we had a shot at getting into heaven.
I'm afraid I don't know. I never discussed it with him before he died.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-30-2004 11:56 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 282 (164577)
12-02-2004 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by happy_atheist
11-30-2004 7:44 AM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
Also i've seen people talk of examples of studies on monkeys (chimps if I remember correctly),
Chimps aren't monkeys, they are apes.
Bees oviously do have some kind of "imagination" if they can communicate using symbols. When a bee dances it communicates information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by happy_atheist, posted 11-30-2004 7:44 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by coffee_addict, posted 12-02-2004 2:59 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied
 Message 256 by happy_atheist, posted 12-02-2004 5:03 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 254 of 282 (164578)
12-02-2004 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by The Dread Dormammu
12-02-2004 2:55 AM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
TDD writes:
Bees oviously do have some kind of "imagination" if they can communicate using symbols. When a bee dances it communicates information.
Not necessarily. The whole thing could be preprogrammed.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-02-2004 2:55 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-02-2004 4:19 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 282 (164588)
12-02-2004 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by coffee_addict
12-02-2004 2:59 AM


Well Topic.
The whole thing could be preprogrammed.
Perhaps we should start another thread about this. Because I think that It doesn't matter whether it is preprogarmmed or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by coffee_addict, posted 12-02-2004 2:59 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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