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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 219 (164168)
11-30-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by purpledawn
11-30-2004 6:37 PM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

As I said the Book of John is an unreliable source. It carries no weight.

This is an offensive statement.

Your word carries even less weight.

What is the point of all your endless speculation?

You probably already know the verses that answer your questions. That you refuse to believe or acknowledge them is another matter.

The danger in what you are doing is that, if doubt can be cast on the gospel of John so flippantly, so too can be done to the other three.

The result of that is that you are free to quote mine from the bible as you please and simply disregard anything that contradicts your view.

My perspective is that, if God exists, and I believe he does, then it is logical for him to provide us with (or make available) his teachings (The Bible) for our edification and his glory.

What you have, after your endeavors, is a God and a message of your own creation. In other words, no God at all.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you. If your goal really is to know the truth, as mine is, then I will post the verses that you request.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by purpledawn, posted 11-30-2004 6:37 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ramoss, posted 11-30-2004 11:42 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2004 8:07 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 219 (164169)
11-30-2004 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by purpledawn
11-30-2004 6:37 PM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn,

The evidence in favor of John's Gospel being reliable is that it is consistent with the other gospels and the pervading message of the entire Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by purpledawn, posted 11-30-2004 6:37 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 2:28 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 219 (164364)
12-01-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ramoss
11-30-2004 11:42 PM


Re: Summary
Ramoss writes:

As far as I am concerned, all of the new testament is just books written by man, not inspired by God at all.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Do you believe in God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ramoss, posted 11-30-2004 11:42 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 219 (164366)
12-01-2004 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by arachnophilia
12-01-2004 2:28 AM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

and here christ claims to a prophet that brings about the endtimes, and it's blasphemous enough to get him killed, even though he REFUSED to call himself the son of god.

That he did not answer "yes" or "no" in that verse is not evidence that he wasn't. He answered the high priest: "Thou has said", implying "yes".

Concerning the pervading message of the bible, I didn't state what I thought it was. How is it that you are then questioning it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 2:28 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 1:37 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 219 (164368)
12-01-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
12-01-2004 8:07 AM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

I find it fascinating that you and Phatboy spend more time trying to make me feel guilty about investigating and questioning what is written instead of providing the verses requested in the OP.

I apologize for the harsh tone of my post.

It's the arrogance (that I perceived) that set me off.

Purpledawn writes:

Whether you believe it or not, learning the truth is my goal.

If you say it is your goal, then I believe you.

Please give me some time this morning and I will try to address your points.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2004 8:07 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 219 (164406)
12-01-2004 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by arachnophilia
12-01-2004 1:37 PM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

that's nice and all. it shows some level education. this jesus has read psalms. ...however, last time i checked psalms were not part of the law. notice he also said "YOUR law" the "The Law?" and "The Jews?"

Evidently, the use of the word "law" refers to something other than what you are thinking and does include the Psalms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 1:37 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ramoss, posted 12-01-2004 3:42 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 219 (164413)
12-01-2004 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ramoss
12-01-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Summary
The use of the term "law" in John 10:34 seems to refer to the broader term "scriptures" does it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ramoss, posted 12-01-2004 3:42 PM ramoss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 4:41 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 219 (164440)
12-01-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by arachnophilia
12-01-2004 4:41 PM


Re: Summary
I believe I understand what you are saying.

However, it may not be an error, per se.

In reading and interpreting scripture we have to consider (among other things):

1. The culture of the time.
2. Common usage of the terms.
3. The authors may have intended a different meaning than the one we might initially grasp.

I think this emphasizes the importance of praying for guidance from God, reading things in context, and taking all the scripture of the bible into consideration when trying to resolve issues like this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 4:41 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 5:37 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 219 (164443)
12-01-2004 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by arachnophilia
12-01-2004 1:37 PM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

show me one passage in any of the three other gospels were jesus claims to be the son of god.

Matthew 16:15-17 says:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It is plain and clear here that Jesus is confirming Peter's assertion that he [Jesus] is the son of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 1:37 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 5:38 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 152 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 8:38 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 219 (164458)
12-01-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
12-01-2004 5:37 PM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

john takes a more attributed perspective on jesus (attributing things people said about him to things he said himself) where matt. mark, and luke do not.

I think that these phenomena lend more credence, not less. Different viewpoints about everything that happened is exactly what you would expect from different authors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 5:37 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-01-2004 6:03 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 219 (164530)
12-01-2004 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
12-01-2004 8:07 AM


Re: Summary
Purpledawn writes:

No I don’t and all you have shown me are statements after the fact. I have not read of any verses that speak of an offer to the Jewish community before the death of Jesus.

To my knowledge, the offer is not present in the Old Testament.

BTW, what is the significance of your prerequisite that the offer be before the death of Jesus?

It is during the time of Jesus, detailed in the New Testament, that the offer is presented. Jesus is clear that he has come to bring a message that was given him by God the Father (Luke 10:21-22):

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

His miracles, works, and resurrection give testimony that he was truthful and that God was with him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2004 8:07 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:37 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 219 (164531)
12-01-2004 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
12-01-2004 8:07 AM


Re: Summary
Here is the offer (as I understand it) John 3:16-21:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2004 8:07 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2004 2:26 AM dpardo has responded
 Message 149 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:51 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 219 (164535)
12-01-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
12-01-2004 8:07 AM


Re: Summary
At the transfiguration, God confirms (a second time) that Jesus is his son and that Jesus' message is God's message (Luke 9:35):

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Peter confirms the gospel message in Acts 10:43-44:

43 To him [Jesus] give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

as does the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:20-25):

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Regarding the rejection of the offer, some Jews believed, some did not. I believe you are familiar with the Gospels and the Book of Acts that describe these.

Isaiah prophesied that the Gentiles would receive God and lamented that the Jews (not all of them though) had continually rejected him (Isaiah 65:1-2):

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2004 8:07 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by dpardo, posted 12-01-2004 9:53 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 5:25 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 219 (164536)
12-01-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by dpardo
12-01-2004 9:51 PM


Re: Summary
Now, here is a warning:

Luke 11:23:

23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

and Luke 11:52:

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by dpardo, posted 12-01-2004 9:51 PM dpardo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ramoss, posted 12-01-2004 10:02 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 7:05 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 219 (164654)
12-02-2004 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ramoss
12-01-2004 10:02 PM


Re: Summary
The warnings were meant for Purpledawn and Arachnophilia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ramoss, posted 12-01-2004 10:02 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 12:39 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:28 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
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