Hauntings, Exorcisms and the Like

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Most scientists don't step foot in churches or mosks or whatever simply because 1) they think it is phoney (like new-agers believe science can't detect what is happening) 2) don't want their experience to be shaken to a movement of the spirit. If a "secular" scientist steps foot in a church he / she will automatically have a "closed heart" and not open to the possibilities because of their belief base.

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But this isn't true, nor is it relevant.Many scientists believe in God, and there are many church- and mosque-and temple-going scientists around the world.Faith is "belief in things unseen".IOW, faith is something that you have regardless of evidence.The religious or spiritual "faith" of any given scientist is irrelevant to his scientific work, because science is a method of inquiry used to understand the natural world. It is not a "faith" or a "belief" like a belief in an "unseen" god or spirit.However, when we are talking about specific claims of "energy" manipulation that are supposed to be able to be detected, or "seen", we have left the arena of subjective faith and have entered emperical, testable nature.

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There is a doctor named Patrick Quillin I believe that treats severe cases of cancer with healthy alternative medicine. His success rate is FAR higher than the other two accepted therapies however western medicine laughs at his results and discounts his findings.

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Where can I view his published articles which carefully document his remarkable cure rate and the methodology he used? All I could find on him was a popular press book. He

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I am just asking these questions arbitrarily. They are not my beliefs. But I can see how new agers hesitate to put themselves in a lab when their even non new age colleagues practicing normal medicine is laughed out of that world. I dont blame them for not stepping out.

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Look, you are the one saying that you could literally knock people out with your power, and that there were others like you and that it was no big deal to easily do what you did.If anyone could really do that under normal experimental controls like the one I outlined, which you are claiming would be easy for many people to do, it would make headline news around the world.Science operates by demonstable effects. Evidence is everything in science. If you can produce detectable effects, scientists will believe you. In fact, just about any scientist would love to get their hands on a person who could really do what you say. It would make their career.

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Do you need to test everything you now understand to be real in your life?

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If I thought I could do something that defied all natural law, then yes, I would test it.

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Maybe once the most basic of nutritional science is not longer viewed as quackery you may find other fringe therapies beginning to step up to the plate.

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What are you talking about? The role of nutrition in health has been understood in general for hundreds of years. That's why sailors took citrus fruit with them on long voyages. That why we know the role of certain foods in preventing and promoting cancer and heart disease.

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In general no one wants to be ridiculed by an old boys club. I know you guys will try to eat me alive for this post and quite frankly these are just my beliefs and findings about the science world.

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You are right that science is a conservative endeavor. New ideas, especially ones which overturn dominant paradigms, are slow to be accepted. However, they are eventually always acceptes if the evidence shows that they must be.So, the question is, are the New Agers able to actually produce the effects under normal experimental controls.If they cannot, which is my strong suspicion, then they most likely are frauds or self-deluded. Kind of like the man who says he can turn himself invisible, but only when nobody is looking.

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I knew if I was tested and proven the scientists that submit the results of the test will find some way to debunk the tests and maintain their belief state. It is what science is truly good at.

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Now now, that sounds an awful lot like you are saying that all scientists are liars and that the entire scientific process is completely flawed.If that is so, then how have we been able to make the enormous progress in technology and knowledge that we currently enjoy?

Things are heating up here. time is running short. no time to proof read. Fantastic points my friend. You are bang on I believe. here are my thoughts All great points I will leave it at that.going back to the day where I was ALMOST able to knock someone out. They were starting to feel dizzy and about to drop to the floor before I stopped. I didn't want to hurth them. This was at the time when I was using energy and not God to do deep spiritual things. I could have done experements at that time and it would have been quantifyable. I don't know anyone else at the moment who was as crazy to try the same things I did because I am no longer in that world. In hind sight it would have been neat to make a scientists career. If Monique bumps me into someone I will definately point them into this forum and maybe then you will have someone "fresh" to test. My practise is a little out of date. You would need to test someone more current. Sorry I can't be of greater help but I will try where I can. Again, I am not in that world any more. how would energy defeat natural law? I don't understand? sorry. that is my point. through nutrition doctors believe foods can "prevent" heart disease and cancer but they believe nutrition can not "reverse" the effects of cancer. even though cellular biology points to the fact that it can. Because medical science wants to stick to the path of pharmateceutical medicine and not natural medicine, they strongly oppose findings like Helda
Clarke's. Yes science is important in just about every area of live however it is not perfect. as with anything there is always a percentage that is bias, pigheaded, closed minded, manipulative etc. That goes for everything, not just science, that also goes for government, religion and everything else. it is a shame that the corrupted percentage has negative effects on the general perception of the practise. That was my only point. It makes it hard for people on the leading "contravercial edge" to get support. Galleleo said the world was round and he was critized and ridiclued for it. People that said the one minute mile could be broken were in essence laughed out of auditoriums. You get the idea. There are definately some quacks out there though. often synicism weeds out those true quacks. fantastic point and I agree completely with you, as long as the tests can truly represent an effective analysis of the practitioner and not a biased look at the therapy. Maybe can't test live enzymes in a test therefore clinical results may be the only way. I think more new age practitioners should step up to the plate and prove their findings to the clinical public. I would love to see tests done on some of the "leading edge" practitioners and not the average schmoe. That is my thought. i appologise that is not what I was trying to say. I am sorry if in my haste to finish the letter i came off that way. Science is a beautiful thing. In fact it is one of my most favorate parts of living. Experiencing the advancement of life is quite exciting to say the least. Seeing tangible proof of new things often sends shivers down my spine. I am sorry if I came off that way.
That quote was just my personal oppinion based off of what I have seen regarding the over critical areas of science. Maybe I am completely wrong, maybe I am partly founded. I know there are a lot of GREAT scientists out there. I just hate seing great things being squashed by the percentage that likes squashing things to remain the same. That is all.
Once again gotta gooh!!! about research there should be plenty of research papers by Dr. Hulda Clark since she was a research scientist for the US government. Her biography is quite impressive. As for the other doctor, i understand he works at one of the largest cancer hospitals in the US. I don't remember which, you should be able to get him on the phone. That is if he did not die in the last 5 years. He is young but my info is now about maybe 5 years old. Anything can happen in 5 years. Good hunting. I am late for a meeting.

info on Patrick Quillin:Dr. Patrick Quillin is the Vice President of Nutrition for Cancer Treatment Centers of America. His professional experience includes work as an internationally respected author, lecturer, professor, and consultant in the field of nutrition.
He has earned his bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees in nutrition and is a registered dietitian (RD) and Certified Nutrition Specialist (CNS). He has appeared on numerous television and radio talk shows nationwide and is a regular speaker for medical conventions. He has been a consultant to the National Institutes of Health, Scripps Clinic, La Costa Spa, and United States Department of Agriculture; has taught college nutrition for 9 years, and worked as a hospital dietitian. His 8 books include the best sellers Healing Nutrients and Beating Cancer With Nutrition. He edited the textbook, Adjuvant Nutrition in Cancer Treatment and organized the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd international symposia on "Adjuvant Nutrition in Cancer Treatment. He is listed in "Who's Who in Science".

Info on Hulda Regehr Clark:Dr. Hulda Clark began her studies in biology at the University of Saskatchewan, Canada, where she was awarded the Batchelor of Arts, Magna Cum Laude, and the Master of Arts, with High Honors. After two years of study at McGill University, she attended the University of Minnesota, studying biophysics and cell physiology. She received her Doctorate degree in physiology in 1958. In 1979 she left government funded research and began private consulting on a full time basis. Today she now publishes her latest conclusions, advice for curing cancer and results in her book Cure For All Cancers.

Just had to interject here. The above isn't true (though it may have been twenty or so years ago), and I'm not sure on what you are basing this information. It is true that commercial drug companies don't put money into such research because the result would not be proprietary.However, there is still an enormous amount of research going on regarding 'nutritional' treatment of existing cancer. Vitamins D, E, etc., phenolics from green tea, soy derivatives, antioxidants; not to mention prebiotics - and this is just the research going on on the floor I work on.The largest annual cancer meeting sponsored by the American Association of Cancer Research has day-long symposiums of medical scientists presenting the kind of research you say doesn't exist. I believe the NIH also has branch decicated to the funding of this kind of research. You seem to be making my point here - how could these scientists get government funding and positions in top hospitals if their research ideas weren't accepted by the scientific community at large?In any case I am just realizing the topic is a more supernatural, and thus the natural response of tumors to nutrional compounds has little bearing.I've met a lot people who stated supernatural powers such as you suggest you've had in the past, but I've never met anyone who was capable of demonstrating them. I wish someone would... if they could...

This brings to my mind, Binny Hinn. I see nothing in the Bible to justify this knockout stuff he does to people. He always makes sure someone is behind the ones he zaps to catch them. Mmmmmm, do you suppose.........???Btw, for the record I'm sure you meant to say the 4 minute mile, rather than the 1 minute mile which finally got broken officially.

Likely, my friend, Jesus would not have done a "demonstation" for you either. The ones who observed him doing the supernatual were the ones, for the most part, who believed in them, namely, mostly his followers. His enemies who witnessed them were so hateful towards him that they would likely deny them, just as the high priest who, at his resurrection, ordered the guards to say someone stole him away.My point here is that God does not effect miracles for demonstrations. He effects the miraculous to those close to him who assume the responsibilities which are involved in being a true Christian and to those who believe in them.

100% correct. Jesus said because of the doubters in his home town, that he done not many works there.I've admired your epistemological and knowledgeable mind from afar Buzsaw, and you can hammer any atheist when it comes to scripture. Especially when your enemies obfuscate so much. Good show!This message has been edited by Delbert Grady, 12-01-2004 09:19 PM

I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about mere mortals like Dynamo321, who has claimed to have had dizzying psychic knock-out powers at some point in the past.In any case, I've always found it awfully convenient that dieties only perform miracles for those who already believe that the dieties are performing miracles. I assure you I hold no hate for Jesus or any person on this planet. I would be genuinely interesting in observing a demonstration, as would many others. I would love to have Dynamo make me dizzy with his mental powers, solely for my edification - not to mention the cover of the journal Nature it would get us if he could do it reproducibly.Miracles are called such solely by believers for a reason - they have always been explainable by some means other than the supernatural (unless you can give me a documented example). I have a feeling the case is similar for the endless claims of psychic powers that are never accompanied by demonstration.

Delbert,
- I'm not an atheist.
- I wasn't obsfucating.
- Perhaps buzsaw was obsfucating a bit by answering my comment about a forum member's potential psychic powers with a comment about God, miracles, and loss of Godsense.
- If you think buz 'hammered' me, you should learn to read contextually.
- John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

great points pink. and I am not a fan of Benny Hin in the least. I will chose not to go there.
As for natural medicine, yes there have been some great breakthroughs but why are these breakthroughs not public known to the public and implimented by doctors at large. Why do we rely so heavily on antiquated practises and not catch up with the new?
It is frustrating some times. Why are these proven results continualy thrown in the waste basket of the medical minds and not embrased as a true form of healing. I don't know.
I am tired of beating this topic. I was enjoying where things went. Great posts. I won't stand in the way. let's not beat this dead horse unless someone has an educated answer to my frustrated questions. and about the 4 minute mile. oops!! typeo

Not just natural medicine, advances in medical research in general take a long, long, long, long time to make it into practice, if they get there at all. It is an inherent problem of the biomedical research machine, and particularly of bureacratic (FDA) procedures. It's not just a matter of time, it's also how tumors/diseases are classified, and how standards of treatment are defined, so that in many cases quite valuable new treatments never stand a chance. In the case of some diseases, standards of treatment were originally arbitrarily chosen, and some haven't changed in twenty years or so. I could get up on a soapbox for a while on this topic, but am again realizing I'm off-topic.Sorry if I came off at all accusatory in my reply to you; you shouldn't be expected to know the state of current research if you don't work in the field. However, misconceptions of neglect areas of research are frustrating to the toiling researchers, especially when some groups try to exploit those misconceptions.

Generally it appears this is because the results aren't proven in a careful rigorous way. It can cost 100's of millions to do this and the "natural medicine" folks are reluctant to risk checking things out.If you can show some such proof and how they aren't being used I'd be surprised.I was able to talk to a major drug company researcher about 6 years ago when skiing with him. One thing I asked about was why the various traditional pharmaecopia haven't been looked at as a source of potential drugs.It turns out that his company had scanned the Chinese medicines for activity the same way they survey the natural environment. They did find some potentially useful materials. However, the ratio was just about the same as when they survey sort of randomly. About 1 in 10,000 works. I was surprised by that result. I would have expected there to have been some selection over the centuries.

Thank you pink verry well put. Thank you sincerely.Thank you also nosyNed. your input is truly valued to me.

I have friends who are docs and a familiy member who is a doctor.I can assure you that those that I know are anxious to use whatever can be shown to be of help.The problem is that it requires evidence of both safty and effectiveness. For almost all of the "alternative" medicinces this evidence is not there. Little by little some of them do get studied. Somre prove to be of some use and some don't.As one told me: "There is no 'alternative' medicine. There is medicine which works and that which doesn't. When something is shown to work it is used."There are huge problems in getting the evidence I agree. I have doc friends who are rather "left" politically and those who are pretty "right" (by Canadian standards anyway ). The interesting thing to me is that they all agree that the drug companies need to be brought under some sort of control. While they do produce useful research some of my friends think that they may be starting to be more harmful than the value they produce.However, when you spend a bit of time thinking and discussing the problems you realize that there are no easy solutions. It is daunting to try to find and safely implement really useful therapies. We may blame drug companies, the FDA or conservative doctors. All of those problems may be there but under all that the process is complex and not something that glib answers will solve.