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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 219 (164657)
12-02-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by arachnophilia
12-02-2004 2:26 AM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

these clearly indicate that god works alone. all the power and might and credit belongs rightly to Allah. jesus cannot be a diety, nor does he play a role in salvation.

do you believe this? the text is quite clear.

if you don't accept this, why should a jew accept the new testament?

I don't expect a Jew to simply accept the New Testament.

If Jesus actually preached and taught the Jews and delivered his message, way back in the first century, does it matter whether it is in a book or not?

That it actually is in a book lends more credence to the existence of God as it is logical to expect that his message be available (however difficult it may be to access it notwithstanding).

Fact (IMO)- The Jews that lived during the first century A.D. heard his message and some believed and some did not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2004 2:26 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 219 (164658)
12-02-2004 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ramoss
12-02-2004 12:39 PM


Re: Summary
Ramoss writes:

Trying to 'warn' Purpledawn and Arachnophilia is irrelavent.

It is irrelevant only if God doesn't exist, IMO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 12:39 PM ramoss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 219 (164663)
12-02-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 4:51 AM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Unfortunately John 3:16 is part of a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. No one else is present.

This makes it a rather limited offer.

Are you really asking me to show you where Jesus preaches the gospel message to more than one person?

Mark 1:14-15:

14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 3:14-19:

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Mark 10:45 confirms what the gospel message is:

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I can post more if you like.

The entire book of Acts describes how the Apostles also continued to preach to the Jews (and the Gentiles).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:51 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:25 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 219 (164664)
12-02-2004 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 8:38 AM


Re: Son of God
Purpledawn writes:

According to this the leaders were already set up to reject Jesus. It was already set up that he must be killed. So the Jewish people involved in this scenerio are blameless.

Matthew 18:7:

7 ¶ Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 8:38 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 219 (164709)
12-02-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 4:25 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Don't confuse Paul's Gospel with the Good News that Jesus preached.

Paul's Gospel?

Acts 20:17-25:

17 ¶ And from Miletus he [Paul] sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Purpledawn,

Have you so confused yourself that you now believe Paul had his own gospel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:25 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 219 (164750)
12-02-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 6:16 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Paul testifies to the good news of God's grace. That is still not the Good News that Jesus preached to the Jews.

Your theories are at odds with the scriptures.

Paul preached what Jesus commanded him to preach.

Acts 23:11 (Near the end of Paul's ministry):

11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 9:09 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 166 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 10:43 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 219 (164753)
12-02-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 6:16 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

According to the NT the Law and the Prophets spoke of Jesus. Even Paul claimed that.

Show me!

This will require time and much more study (and prayer!) as I am aware that to reason and persuade such things is no small task!

I am currently engaged in a project that takes up most of my free time but I will endeavor to get to it as soon as I can.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 219 (164892)
12-03-2004 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-03-2004 7:55 AM


Re: insults
Arachnophilia writes:

now, back on topic, do you understand why the "offer" has to be in jewish literature for it to be aimed at jews?

It doesn't have to be in any literature.

The question is, did Jesus and the Apostles actually live, preach, and teach?

If they didn't, then we have nothing to debate over.

But, if they did, and the evidence indicates that they did, then they presented God's offer to the Jews (and Gentiles).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by arachnophilia, posted 12-04-2004 6:12 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 219 (164893)
12-03-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-03-2004 7:55 AM


Re: insults
Arachnophilia writes:

i can snap back with quotes all day, but where does this get us? you implied that i'm not a christian, and said that i'm detracting from the faith others, when i'm only after the truth as a believer myself. and so i called you a fool.

shall we make a thread just for flinging biblical insults at each other? seems a little petty and unchristian to me, but oop there i go again!

I didn't post those verses to insult you.

As a fellow Christian, I'm trying to warn you to be careful how you go about searching for the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2004 1:34 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 219 (164903)
12-03-2004 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ramoss
12-02-2004 10:43 PM


Re: John 3:16
Ramoss writes:

Since PAUL never met Jesus in person, how can JESUS have comanded him to preach anything?

Ramoss,

In Acts 22, Paul, near the end of his ministry and accused of some of the Jews in Jerusalem, summarizes the events that led to his conversion from a Pharisee to a follower of Christ:

1 ¶ Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 ¶ I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
22 ¶ And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 10:43 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 219 (164912)
12-03-2004 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by macaroniandcheese
12-03-2004 1:34 PM


Re: insults
Brennakimi writes:

is it dangerous to go searching for the truth in the bible and from bible scholars? or just in a way that the sbc doesn't approve?

I am all for searching and questioning, my contention is that, on our journey, we be careful how we express our questions and doubts.

If I am struggling with a particular scripture(s) at this point in time, and I say to my neighbor, "This is an unrealiable section", I may cause my neighbor to stumble.

Better for me to simply say, "I am struggling with this section" or, "I do not understand this section".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2004 1:34 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 2:02 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 177 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2004 8:54 AM dpardo has responded
 Message 184 by arachnophilia, posted 12-04-2004 5:41 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 219 (164966)
12-03-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ramoss
12-03-2004 4:27 PM


Ramoss writes:

John never saw Jesus in person. He claims he had a vision. Many people claim to have a vision. Seeing a bright light like that is often due to
heat stroke, or delusions.

So, John cliamed he had some visions, heard some voices, and saw a big light.

It is not possible to have a productive debate with you because you give yourself the freedom to pick and choose what you like out of scripture and discard what you don't like.

If you would like to start a thread regarding anything miraculous purported in the bible, I invite you to do so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 219 (164971)
12-03-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ramoss
12-03-2004 4:27 PM


Ramoss,

When I see something in the bible that gives me pause to wonder, I check to see whether or not it is consistent with other scripture.

Visions and intervention by God (or Angels) are consistent with other scripture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 9:54 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 219 (165105)
12-04-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by purpledawn
12-04-2004 8:54 AM


Re: Spiritual Comfort Zone
Purpledawn writes:

In Message 5 I agreed with ramoss that the offer should be within the Hebrew Bible since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.

I answered this in Message 168.

In Message 122 you opened the door concerning the book of John and Arach jumped on it. Maybe you forgot that this is in the "Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.

The issue of the Book of John as divine revelation from God should be a separate thread.

I don't go to Bible Studies anymore because I can't have the discussion necessary to answer my questions for fear of putting someone in spiritual crisis, which makes the study useless for me.

In the "Faith and Belief" forum I try not to make statements that might cause someone to stumble, but in this forum and in a thread I started, I shouldn't have to stifle my thoughts and opinions.

If I did there would be no discussion. So if this discussion is going beyond your spiritual comfort zone, then let us know and bow out of the discussion.

It is possible to discuss any questions and doubts without making statements like this:

Purpledawn writes:

As I said the Book of John is an unreliable source. It carries no weight.

Do you understand what I am saying?

This is what you posted in claiming a book of scripture is not reliable:

Excerpt from "A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson 1987

The collapse of the Jewish--Christian church after 70 AD and the triumph of Hellenistic Christianity led the Jews, in turn, to castigate the Christians. ...Under the rule of Raban Gamaliel II, the Twelfth Benediction or Birkat ha-Minim (Benediction concerning heretics) was recast to apply to Christians and this seems to have been the point at which the remaining Jewish followers of Christ were turned out of the synagogue.

Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions:
For apostates may there be no hope, and may the Nazarenes and heretics suddenly perish.

During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. This makes the book of John an unreliable source.

Please consider what I have said to you.

This should probably be, as I said, another topic but, the issue you raise is not whether his followers would be allowed in the synagogues but rather, someone who "confessed Christ".

John 9:22:

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2004 8:54 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 11:40 AM dpardo has not yet responded
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 219 (165107)
12-04-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by ramoss
12-04-2004 9:54 AM


Ramoss writes:

And it is relavent that the appostles that supposedly KNEW Jesus in the flesh stayed faithful Jews, while Paul went after the Gentiles, but only after seeing a 'vision'.

Ramoss,

Even a cursory reading of Acts refutes what you say.

After Peter had preached the gospel message to Cornelius (a Gentile), Acts 11 says:

1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 9:54 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 12:33 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 183 by Amlodhi, posted 12-04-2004 1:21 PM dpardo has responded

  
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