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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 91 of 189 (164691)
12-02-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by PurpleYouko
12-02-2004 9:32 AM


Re: When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
PY,
Thanks for sharing some experiences. I'm interested in things like this, and I always have been. However, in order to understand these things, I always thought that understanding ourselves was a really important prerequisite. So I've eventually followed a path to study perception, consciousness, and what makes the human mind. From what I read, I think this must be interesting to you, too.
I have 2 comments:
1. Maybe I missed you mention it in another post, because I didn't read this thread very diligently before posting. If this is a very consistent phenomenon, have you thought about submitting to scientific testing? As Ned posted, there's a huge reward. Furthermore, it would help others discover the nature of yourself. Who knows, maybe it would help you understand yourself better as well.
2. I'm not really interested to try and explain away your experiences without real evidence; however I think it is important to motivate that it's possible. There's something in your explanations that is implicit, but that I think is wrong. For some of the examples, I think it's a key point, and in investigating in the future, I think it's important to be aware of.
There are more ways to communicate than 'meets the eye.' This means two things:
1. There are ways to communicate besides just seeing and hearing.
2. Not all communication is conscious.
In your experience, you've described a lack of conscious visual and auditory communication. However, it's really possible that there's communication going on in other ways.
- Unconscious visual cues (from your friends to you, or from you to your friends) about what you or your other friends believe about the photo (easy to happen in a 'yes' or 'no' scenario); this is how horses 'learn' how to count. This is also related to how ouiji boards are explained to work (control of motor function beneath the 'conscious will' level). This can't explain many of your experience, but it's important to control for in a scientific experiment.
- Sense of smell - I think this is the most important one. As discussed in this video (~4:00 - 7:00), there is some really unexpected and interesting behavior that is controlled via ferramones. For example, ovulation cycles in a community of females become synchronized over time due to ferramones. This isn't unique to humans, but is found strongly in other mammals. I think this is an important thing to control
Of course, these are just the thoughts of an amateur; this list is not complete or even really too important. The main point is that there truly are ways to communicate that I believe you're not considering, and that's important to investigate and to control. Because, like you, I'm interested in what lies behind all of it.
I hope this post provides some meaning for you; I appreciate your open-mindedness and your search for others of the same ilk.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-02-2004 9:32 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-02-2004 4:48 PM Ben! has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 92 of 189 (164711)
12-02-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Ben!
12-02-2004 4:20 PM


Re: When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
Hi Bencip
If this is a very consistent phenomenon, have you thought about submitting to scientific testing? As Ned posted, there's a huge reward. Furthermore, it would help others discover the nature of yourself. Who knows, maybe it would help you understand yourself better as well.
I think it would be kind of cool to submit to testing. Trouble is that this kind of stuff never operates on demand. This is always the major argument of the skeptic and as such is a very strong point.
Your point about pheremones is also a good one. It could go a long way towards screwing up an amateur experiment between a bunch of 15 year olds. I admit that I didn't consider this possibility but I will describe the experiment and see what you think. This is how it went, as accurately as I can remember. (this was 25 years ago after all)
1) I found, scrounged, copied as many supposed "ghost" piccys as I could get my hands on. Some of these felt real to me. Others didn't
2) I made up 4 lists with a series of check boxes on for each picture. Stuff like "Not real", "real", "maybe" and so on.
3) Myself and 3 friends each took a copy of the pile of pictures and a copy of the check sheet, into 4 separate rooms to fill it out.
4) Compared results for correlation.
I thought it was a pretty cool experiment at the time. I would probably do it a little differently today though.
This is also related to how ouiji boards are explained to work (control of motor function beneath the 'conscious will' level).
Funny you should mention ouiji boards. That is another area that I used to experiment with. I was actually a strong skeptic of the process for the very reason that you described.
That all changed one night when I and a group of my friends all decided to make a makeshift board out of a circular table, a glass and a bunch of scrabble letters. It started out as fun then the glass started spelling out threats and stuff. All the girls in the group decided to stop so they just stood back on the other side of the room to watch. This left myself and two male friends. We all kept going for another few minutes until it just got too intense. (cold feeling room and all the ghostly stuff) We all let go of the glass but the damn thing still kept moving on it's own with nobody near it. After spelling out a few more threats, the glass suddenly threw itself across the room and smashed against the wall.
I can't explain it unless there was.
a) Someone with a subconscious (or conscious) telikinetic ability.
b) Some form of genuine spirit comunicating with us.
Either way. I stopped messing about with that kind of stuff after that.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Ben!, posted 12-02-2004 4:20 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 189 (164823)
12-03-2004 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu
11-17-2004 5:29 AM


The Dread Dormammu writes:
Spirits are apparently beings that can have thoughts and can interact with the material world, but are not themselves material, that is they are made out of something that is not matter.
How is this possible? Are they made out of something that is above matter, meaning it can decend to interact with matter but doesnt have to? If so isn't this just another form of matter?
Or is it possible to have something that has thoughts but is completely immaterial.
I feel as if I have experienced "spirits" and "Spirit" and so I would say that there is an unexplainable realm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-17-2004 5:29 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-03-2004 4:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 189 (164830)
12-03-2004 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
12-03-2004 3:12 AM


How could you know something is unexplanable
I feel as if I have experienced "spirits" and "Spirit" and so I would say that there is an unexplainable realm.
I don't see your point please elaborate.
Purple Yoko has been posting a lot of anecdotes so I don't think we need to hear more but do you have something to say about what things are unexplainable?
In fact, if strange things happen and we say that spirits caused them aren't we using spitits as an explanation?
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-03-2004 04:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 3:12 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 9:11 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 95 of 189 (164856)
12-03-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by The Dread Dormammu
12-03-2004 4:28 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
dormamu writes:
Purple Yoko has been posting a lot of anecdotes so I don't think we need to hear more but do you have something to say about what things are unexplainable?
I have just been getting them out of my system, so to speak. I will try to refrain from adding any more.
I am just fascinated with this subject and want to learn more about it so I figured that a few examples from my own past might get things moving.
I have to admit that I can't really see the difference between "spirits" and "spirit" unless we are talking about the religious connotation of "spirit" as in "The holy spirit enfused my body". Otherwise "spirit" is just a singular form of "spirits".
As Dormamu says. I don't see the point.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-03-2004 4:28 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 10:36 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 189 (164876)
12-03-2004 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by PurpleYouko
12-03-2004 9:11 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
purpleYouko writes:
I am just fascinated with this subject and want to learn more about it so I figured that a few examples from my own past might get things moving.
I have to admit that I can't really see the difference between "spirits" and "spirit" unless we are talking about the religious connotation of "spirit" as in "The holy spirit enfused my body". Otherwise "spirit" is just a singular form of "spirits".
Allow me to state my belief. Please note that I have no "proof" for this belief as it is what it is: A Belief and nothing more.
There is one Spirit. This Spirit is the very Spirit of one monotheistic Creator. I have been deep in prayer on occasions where my eyes were closed and I suddenly sensed the presence of Him. How did I know that it was Him and not one of the "others"? Because of the wonderful inner peace and of the fact that when I opened my eyes everyone around me had literally fallen on the ground.
Call it brainwashing or sensationalized emotionalism, but you would have had to experience it to know it as I know it.
"spirits", by contrast, are every other imitation. "Spirits" are not God nor are they in His class. They are the fallen angelic realm. I have sensed them more than once, and always in a situation of bad vibes. As an example, once, when I was living with two other people, I found out that one of them had been involved in a murder. You could literally feel that "spirit" that was involved in that evil act, because I falt a cold and uncontrollable fear.
Do spirits attach themselves to emotions so as to influence us? I do not know, for I am no presumed authority on such matters. I recommend
books by Merrill Unger on the subject. He had a few degrees and knew his stuff, so to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 9:11 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 10:53 AM Phat has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 97 of 189 (164877)
12-03-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
12-03-2004 10:36 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Phatboy writes:
"spirits", by contrast, are every other imitation. "Spirits" are not God nor are they in His class. They are the fallen angelic realm. I have sensed them more than once, and always in a situation of bad vibes. As an example, once, when I was living with two other people, I found out that one of them had been involved in a murder. You could literally feel that "spirit" that was involved in that evil act, because I falt a cold and uncontrollable fear.
I have also felt this kind of thing but the "spirit" that you descibe isn't quite the way I see it.
I think of it more as an "aura" that people exude and some others are able to detect in some way. I don't see it as an actual entity kind of "spirit" in this case.
However, as stated previously, I have also encountered what I beleive to be non-corporeal entities (spirits) many times.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 10:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 11:27 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 189 (164882)
12-03-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by PurpleYouko
12-03-2004 10:53 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Interesting stuff, Youko! Some people do not differentiate between good(Holy Spirit) and bad (other ones) in the realm.
Critics say that this can lead to delusion and deception by the "unclean" spirits who seek to imitate the power and authority of the Holy one, but of course if one does not believe in differentiation, one would tend to dismiss those critics.
One belief tends towards monotheism while the other belief tends toward pantheism and a shared connection with a universal "spirit".
I personally lean more towards the monotheistic explanation with the fallen angelic hypothesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 10:53 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 99 of 189 (164883)
12-03-2004 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
12-03-2004 11:27 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
I am more inclined to think that maybe these whatever-they-ares are a completely unknown non-corporeal life form that is able to interact with our universe to some degree through something akin to ESP of Telekinesis.
I really don't have any fixed beleifs about them or their nature. That is one of the reasons I am on this thread.
Why must they all be bad? fallen angels?
I have encountered some that seem to be good while others are not. Just like people really.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 11:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by sidelined, posted 12-03-2004 8:42 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 103 by lfen, posted 12-04-2004 5:04 AM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-04-2004 1:10 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 100 of 189 (165016)
12-03-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by PurpleYouko
12-03-2004 11:35 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Purple Youko
I am more inclined to think that maybe these whatever-they-ares are a completely unknown non-corporeal life form that is able to interact with our universe to some degree through something akin to ESP of Telekinesis.
I don't mean to sound snide but could that sentence be any more obtuse? Whatever-they-ares,unknown non-corporeal and interact with our universe.What do you define non-corporeal to mean?
Esp and telekenisis have never been shown demonstrated to be observable under controlled conditions but if you have some evidence that would back up these supposed powers please see if you can get a study done on it.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 11:35 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 10:53 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 106 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-04-2004 11:36 AM sidelined has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 189 (165045)
12-03-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by sidelined
12-03-2004 8:42 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
sidelined writes:
Esp and telekenisis have never been shown demonstrated to be observable under controlled conditions but if you have some evidence that would back up these supposed powers please see if you can get a study done on it.
Apparantly, all U.F.O. and Unidentifiable Phenomenon are by definition unobservable under all controlled conditions EXCEPT personal observation at the time. I have been at places where the same supernatural event (or perceived as such) was witnessed by more than one person, but nailing the proof so as to win the $100,000 provable hoax prize has as yet to occur.
You are mostly atheist and quite a skeptic, but it is a wise and cautious position to have, sidelined. I respect it, old chap.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by sidelined, posted 12-03-2004 8:42 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by sidelined, posted 12-04-2004 8:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 189 (165049)
12-03-2004 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 6:02 PM


Re: Interesting question
But how are you suppose to know if the "theory" is valid or not unless you've illuminated every possibility that could potentially make the thoery invalid? The only way for you to be able to illuminate those possibilities is to be skeptical of the theory itself and seek out and investigate those possibilities.
Some of us do that with the Biblical supernatural. We cite scores of unique fulfilled prophecy, all supernatual stuff, and you all simply pshaw it as if it didn't exist. Why? Because it throws a big monkey wrench into the cogs of your secularist machinery.
Witches, pagans, spiritualists and Biblicalists, wizzards and seers, the good and the evil all work with the supernatural. Unless you're one of these, you will may not be aware of the spiritual entities and principalities existing in the universe. These entities do not make a point of demonstrating for the sake of entertaining unbelievers. Why should they waste their time, when you don't believe what we are able show you anyhow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 6:02 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-04-2004 8:46 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 105 by crashfrog, posted 12-04-2004 11:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 103 of 189 (165078)
12-04-2004 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by PurpleYouko
12-03-2004 11:35 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
I am more inclined to think that maybe these whatever-they-ares are a completely unknown non-corporeal life form that is able to interact with our universe to some degree through something akin to ESP of Telekinesis.
So are you positing another unknown force "telekinesis" that is not gravity, electromagnetic, the weak or strong force? And is this "force" supernatural so that it can't be measured by physics? And yet it can interact with natural matter?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 11:35 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-04-2004 11:42 AM lfen has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 189 (165092)
12-04-2004 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
12-03-2004 11:26 PM


Re: Interesting question
These entities do not make a point of demonstrating for the sake of entertaining unbelievers. Why should they waste their time, when you don't believe what we ARE ABLE {caps mine because I couldnt do bold type}to show you anyhow?
Well simple, because I WOULD beleve in these things if they could be shown, under controled conditions, to exist so would many other people. In fact Most people beleve in magic and supenatural powers WITHOUT sicentific evedence, (Think Uri Geller, James van Praah and Jon Edwards (the medium, not the canidate). Think of how much more persuasive it would be if you they had even a SHRED of double blind experimental evedence!
The great thing about science is that it CAN change it's mind, when there is enough evedence. People thought electricity was something different from lightning, Ben Franklen showed they were the same force. How? Through evidence!
Unfortunately when people who claim to have these powers try to demonstrate them under laboratory conditions it doesn't work. And when science tries to find ghosts it fails.
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-04-2004 12:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2004 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 105 of 189 (165110)
12-04-2004 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
12-03-2004 11:26 PM


We cite scores of unique fulfilled prophecy, all supernatual stuff
Why would fulfilled "prophecy" be supernatural? everybody knows that you can "fulfill" prophecy without supernatural intervention; hell, the Greeks figured this out in ancient times.
Of course, despite your complaints, I don't actually remember you successfully defending a single example of real prophecy. All you've ever displayed on the subject is your ability to retrodact vague predictions into situations where they don't quite apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2004 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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