Crashfrog and Hangdawg are discussing supernatural vs unexplained and undefined pheneomena.
crashfrog writes:
So how does this "spirit sight" work, exactly? How do you see something that light won't bounce off?
Hangdawg writes:
I don't know about Purple's experiences, but Micah said that the things he saw couldn't be completely described as a 'visual' thing, but the best way to describe it in terms that people can understand is by giving a visual description.
I would also put forth this addendum: When we dream, we "see" things. There is no light source for this. Supernatural events could be likened to a waking dream. Not to say that they are imaginary. I have had several such events in my life. 1) I distinctly heard voices come out of someone that were unexplainable. At the same time that these multiple voices came forth, my hair was standing on end and the air was electrically charged. I was under the influence of no substance, and two of my friends saw and were part of the same event. The fourth guy who had the voices was uncomfortable and reluctant to talk about the event except to say that he seemed to be a part of it but not the cause of it. 2) Once, when a relative died, I sensed the presence and the smell of that person at the time of death while I was at work miles from where they died. I did not know that they had even died until later. I agree with Crashfrog in that we need not assume supernatural when these unexplained events occur. I will say that I have no other explanations that fit my explanations, however.
Okay, I would believe they went to the mountains. But let's say they also told me they caught a glimpse of bigfoot, bigfoot is supposed to have been sighted here in the pacific northwest. And lets say I knew them well and knew they tended to get excited by things and have an interest in weird stuff. I'd probably think they mistook a bear for bigfoot. I'd be skeptical about that part of the story even if I believed they were sincere in the telling and not putting me on I'd think it was a misidentification
Lets back up a minute. 1)You know these friends well. You can tell when they are prone to exaggeration based on excitement and when they have literally been shook by something. Which expression do you see in them? Are they so obviously affected as to be mentally persuaded or are they merely vibing off an adrenaline rush produced by a scary yet exciting unknown sighting? 2) Were there ever other sightings in that area? In our examples of supernaturally possible events, we are not alone in our stories. It is good to be skeptical to a point, but to dismiss the supernatural as a possible explanation is biased from the point of view of a believer. I respect it as a scientific necessity, however.
Ifen writes:
The highest teachings of Buddhism and Vedanta deny independent reality to these "visions". There value is primarily that they indicate someone has developed concentration or devotion to a high degree. Those who have such visions are encouraged to NOT cling to them or think of them as something special but to see them as distractions to seeing the deepest truth of the Self.
I would agree with you in that one must not lift up the event above God. God may allow us to experience certain things to draw us closer to Him and not to idolize the event itself. In my examples and in the examples of the others, perhaps these events were mean't as a personal affirmation and deepening of faith and were not mean't to be sensationalized in any way.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-21-2004 12:05 PM
Spirits are apparently beings that can have thoughts and can interact with the material world, but are not themselves material, that is they are made out of something that is not matter. How is this possible? Are they made out of something that is above matter, meaning it can decend to interact with matter but doesnt have to? If so isn't this just another form of matter?
Or is it possible to have something that has thoughts but is completely immaterial.
I feel as if I have experienced "spirits" and "Spirit" and so I would say that there is an unexplainable realm.
I am just fascinated with this subject and want to learn more about it so I figured that a few examples from my own past might get things moving.
I have to admit that I can't really see the difference between "spirits" and "spirit" unless we are talking about the religious connotation of "spirit" as in "The holy spirit enfused my body". Otherwise "spirit" is just a singular form of "spirits".
Allow me to state my belief. Please note that I have no "proof" for this belief as it is what it is: A Belief and nothing more.
There is one Spirit. This Spirit is the very Spirit of one monotheistic Creator. I have been deep in prayer on occasions where my eyes were closed and I suddenly sensed the presence of Him. How did I know that it was Him and not one of the "others"? Because of the wonderful inner peace and of the fact that when I opened my eyes everyone around me had literally fallen on the ground. Call it brainwashing or sensationalized emotionalism, but you would have had to experience it to know it as I know it. "spirits", by contrast, are every other imitation. "Spirits" are not God nor are they in His class. They are the fallen angelic realm. I have sensed them more than once, and always in a situation of bad vibes. As an example, once, when I was living with two other people, I found out that one of them had been involved in a murder. You could literally feel that "spirit" that was involved in that evil act, because I falt a cold and uncontrollable fear.
Do spirits attach themselves to emotions so as to influence us? I do not know, for I am no presumed authority on such matters. I recommend books by Merrill Unger on the subject. He had a few degrees and knew his stuff, so to speak.
Interesting stuff, Youko! Some people do not differentiate between good(Holy Spirit) and bad (other ones) in the realm.
Critics say that this can lead to delusion and deception by the "unclean" spirits who seek to imitate the power and authority of the Holy one, but of course if one does not believe in differentiation, one would tend to dismiss those critics.
One belief tends towards monotheism while the other belief tends toward pantheism and a shared connection with a universal "spirit".
I personally lean more towards the monotheistic explanation with the fallen angelic hypothesis.
Esp and telekenisis have never been shown demonstrated to be observable under controlled conditions but if you have some evidence that would back up these supposed powers please see if you can get a study done on it.
Apparantly, all U.F.O. and Unidentifiable Phenomenon are by definition unobservable under all controlled conditions EXCEPT personal observation at the time. I have been at places where the same supernatural event (or perceived as such) was witnessed by more than one person, but nailing the proof so as to win the $100,000 provable hoax prize has as yet to occur.
You are mostly atheist and quite a skeptic, but it is a wise and cautious position to have, sidelined. I respect it, old chap.
I am more inclined to think that maybe these whatever-they-ares are a completely unknown non-corporeal life form that is able to interact with our universe to some degree through something akin to ESP of Telekinesis.
Well, they would not be "completely unknown". One school of thought agrees with you somewhat in that these non-corporeal entities DO interact with humans in various ways. The other school of thought labels all such events into imagination and fantasy, much like unicorns, leprichauns, and fairies.
A science- minded and logical person will most likely NEVER be convinced of such a realm EVEN if subjected to an experience similar to what you or I have experienced. By nature, a logical person will attempt to seek explanations that are measureable, verifiable, and that make sense. I would venture to say that many of us who DO believe in such supernatural and unexplainable entities are predisposed to acceptance and even desire of such reality.
It's not untestable - the gravity of that mass is undeniably there.
Do you mean that IF such an entity existed, the mass would HAVE to be measureable? What if such entities could use the bodies of those already present? They would thus be unmeasureable since all that would be observable would be the people already present? 1) They would be figments of ones imagination. OR 2) They would be otherworldly yet would influence susceptible people.
OK, so I too have "seen" this sort of stuff...so i don't think this guy is making it up.
Phat,from message#110 writes:
One school of thought agrees with you somewhat in that these non-corporeal entities DO interact with humans in various ways. The other school of thought labels all such events into imagination and fantasy, much like unicorns, leprechauns, and fairies.
A science- minded and logical person will most likely NEVER be convinced of such a realm EVEN if subjected to an experience similar to what you or I have experienced. By nature, a logical person will attempt to seek explanations that are measurable, verifiable, and that make sense. I would venture to say that many of us who DO believe in such supernatural and unexplainable entities are predisposed to acceptance and even desire of such reality.
Once you have had an experience like this, you will never see reality the same way again. Comments?
I once had an experience where I lost all concept of my personal identity. I felt fully connected to every living thing on the planet.
It was terrifying and moving: the most powerful experience I have ever had.
Would this be a similar experience to the one you describe?
That sounds more like what i experienced on one of my teenage hallucinogenic trips with acid or mushrooms...nowhere close to the spiritual experience. It was more of a fear and awe wrapped into one...yet i felt very sober minded otherwise...not high or trippy at all
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