I think that these phenomena lend more credence, not less. Different viewpoints about everything that happened is exactly what you would expect from different authors.
yes, but at the same time you can't hold all of them to be right when they differ.
matthew mark and luke actually all show signs of being COPIED from one document, the theoretical "q" gospel. yet they still differ.
it's important to take the writings with a grain of salt, and analyze them. after much thought, i've decided not to accept the gospel of john for numerous reasons, and only one is the disagreement with other gospels.
on page one of this thread, i made a demonstration. here's some verses from the koran:
quote:4:48 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.
quote:4:116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.
quote:4:60 Hast thou not seen those who pretend that they believe in that which is revealed unto thee and that which was revealed before thee, how they would go for judgment (in their disputes) to false deities when they have been ordered to abjure them ? Satan would mislead them far astray.
these clearly indicate that god works alone. all the power and might and credit belongs rightly to Allah. jesus cannot be a diety, nor does he play a role in salvation.
do you believe this? the text is quite clear.
if you don't accept this, why should a jew accept the new testament?
quote:Pro 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.
quote:Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
it's irrelevent because, well, it's not relevant to the discussion.
i can snap back with quotes all day, but where does this get us? you implied that i'm not a christian, and said that i'm detracting from the faith others, when i'm only after the truth as a believer myself. and so i called you a fool.
shall we make a thread just for flinging biblical insults at each other? seems a little petty and unchristian to me, but oop there i go again!
now, back on topic, do you understand why the "offer" has to be in jewish literature for it to be aimed at jews? the implication is that they messed up something. but even paul, who doesn't normally take a good view of jews, seems to imply that salvation by faith does not apply to jews, but that they are not condemned. he says that by becoming a jew (being circumcised) you are held to the law, and faith is worthless (galations 5). this is describing two DISTINCT covenants, and that jesus's message was aimed at the gentiles.
i do not neccessarily agree. i don't like many of paul's ideas, and this is no exception. but this is related to my current crisis of faith, my big question at the moment, and so i don't have any answers as to how i feel about it.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-03-2004 07:56 AM
Better for me to simply say, "I am struggling with this section" or, "I do not understand this section".
except that i am NOT struggling with that section, nor do i not understand it, so neither of those would be accurate decisions of my position.
instead, i understand and it is my educated opinion that the book of john carries no weight, and is an unreliable source. i have a similar opinion of the epistles: they are the advice of men, not the law of god.
if this simple observation that the bible is a fallible set of documents causes you to question your faith.... good. you should question. there is nothing wrong with asking questions.
but more importantly, your faith should not be based on a book. christianity is a personal relationship with god, not a reading assignment. i question and i learn about the bible because it's interesting, not because it's the cornerstone of my faith. i've found the bible to be outright faked in some sections (like deuteronomy), but i'm still a believer, and still a christian.
i'm not hurting anyone's faith here; i'm just a student of the bible. if reading the bible and understanding the bible hurts your faith, maybe it's misplaced. and if asking questions hurts your faith, maybe you never really had it.
quote:When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
yes, it does. because we have to know about it somehow. otherwise, we're just making stuff up.
why jewish literature? well, you still haven't answered my quotes from the koran.
The question is, did Jesus and the Apostles actually live, preach, and teach?
i believe they did, but in truth i do not actually know for sure. we have no record of jesus outside of the new testament. and there is a reason that that is not regarded as history.
and as i've pointed out, i believe some of the apostles to be WRONG.
But, if they did, and the evidence indicates that they did, then they presented God's offer to the Jews (and Gentiles).
some of them, at least.
when god presented his children with the (first) covenant, the ten commandments, it was a contract that all of israel was held to. how were the ten commandments presented? did everyone hear them, or just moses who had to write them down and present god's word to the people?